Help! Flash-mob work party required to disentangle the Pitts (1820 Settlers)

Started by Sharon Doubell on Tuesday, April 1, 2014
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Needing help to figure out which set of Pitt parents:
1) Robert Pitt, Snr, SV/PROG & Lucy Pitt, SM/PROG
OR
2) John Pitt and Sarah Roberts

had which children.

Sources contradict horribly: (See Discussion: http://www.geni.com/discussions/134276), and we need some sleuthing and more Sources to start to disentangle.
Please come and help, and post your findings here before changing anything on the tree.

Having just disentangled two Phyllis Pitt Freemantles from each other:

(No Name)
born 1832,
Married JAMES Freemantle in 1853
Parents: ROBERT Pitt & Lucy Rapley

Phillis Freemantle
born 1830 - died 1898;
Married WILLIAM Freemantle in 1850
Parents: JOHN Pitt & Sarah Roberts.

We find another with these two sets of parents: Sarah Jane Wood
daughter of Robert & Lucy: http://www.southafricansettlers.com/?p=1429 but - according to her death notice, also the daughter of John Pitt and Sarah Roberts. See http://www.southafricansettlers.com/?p=22515

Then Mary Green also has her parents noted as John Pitt and Sarah on her death notice see - http://www.southafricansettlers.com/?p=24813

As Jennifer Ann Goldhill says: Robert Pitt and Lucy Pitt (Rapley) were already 43 and 41 when they arrived in S.A. Do you think they would have had another 7 children? I wonder about the notes from C. Lionel Bibb on http://www.southafricansettlers.com/?p=1429
Would like to see the original death notice for Robert or Lucy Pitt."

I have a book on Kirkman/Painter/Green - will see if I can unearth anything of interest - as I am kind-of related to that MARY Green in your message...

Mary Green is Helen Low (Painter)'s aunt's great grandmother's husband's brother's wife's sister!
Helen Low (Painter)
You → Sidney Herbert Painter
your father → Clifford Llewellyn Painter
his brother → Pamela Painter
his wife → Gwendolyn Ablort Symington
her mother → Henry Ablort Morgan
her father → Louisa Selina BERRY
his mother → Charles Henry Webster
her husband → Henry James Webster
his brother → Jane Webster
his wife → Mary Green
her sister

That would be great Helen. Thank you

Hi Sharon et al,
Found this on internet.. (pasted below, but here is the link http://www.genealogy.amay.co.uk/main.php?p=FF2-pittRoberts)

THE PITT / ROBERTS FAMILY CONNECTION.

The Pitt family came out to South Africa from Gloucestershire in two groups, both headed by sons of William Pitt who lived at Tetbury. These brothers may have been twins, since it is known that the one, Robert Pitt*, was born in 1777 and was a Settler with his wife, Lucy* and son, Robert Pitt* who was accompanied by his wife, Mary*; whereas, although the date of birth is not confirmed, it appears that the brother, William was also born in 1777 and he and his wife, Mary, having agreed on 7.5.1826 to pay half their fare, were enabled to join his brother in the Cape Colony. They came out in Shepherd's party in 1826, bringing with them five children, Sarah, William, James, Thomas and John Pitt. The latter was married to Sarah Pitt nee Roberts and this particular surname 'Roberts' has come down through the family as a Christian name for six generations to Paul Roberts Freemantle's son, James Roberts Freemantle, born 1967 and grandson, Warren Roberts Freemantle, born 2001.

The original Settler Robert Pitt* was a husbandman and turnkey; his brother William was a shoemaker.

William and Mary Pitt had six children:

(i) John Pitt (born in 1803 in Buckinghamshire), who married Sarah Roberts, and died in 1870. John Pitt and Sarah Pitt nee Roberts had seven daughters, one of these being Phillis Pitt, born in May, 1830. It has been suggested that she was born in London, but as the family were in the Cape Colony by 1826, this may not be so, although her Uncle William did return to England after coming out with the family. The names of her sisters were: (i) Mary (married Joseph Green); (ii) Elizabeth (married John Ashenhurst); (iii) Ruth (married Edward Dicks); (iv) Ann (married George Flannigan); (v) Sarah (married Samuel Wood; she died 6.7.1893); and (vi) Jane (married Henry Webster).
(ii) Sarah (born 1804);
(iii) William (born 1813, who returned to England);
(iv) James (born 1816, married 30.12.1837 to Penelope Short Grit);
(vi) Thomas (born 1819, married Dinah ? and died in Grahamstown; they had three children) and
(vii) John Pitt (born 1825). [Another John?] His wife was a nurse in Grahamstown.


Settlers in 1826 in Shepherd's party:
The John Pitt who married Sarah Roberts 'was a descendant of William Pitt, Earl of Chatham and Prime Minister of England during the reign of George III. William Pitt was also a witness signatory to the Will of Hannah Lightfoot, morganatic wife of George III and mother of George Rex, who was banished to South Africa and settled in Knysna.'

Pitt - William (1759 - 1806)
'British Statesman. He was the younger son of the Earl of Chatham (q.v.) and was called to the Bar in 1780 and entered Parliament the following year as member for Appleby. His success in the House was of unparalleled rapidity. He became Chancellor of the Exchequer at twenty-three, and in the following year attained the position of Prime Minister. He obtained an overwhelming majority at the General Election of 1784. His first measure was the passing of his India Bill. The establishment of the delusive scheme of a sinking fund followed in 1786, and his Regency Bill in 1788. The French Revolution now broke out and in 1793 war arose between Great Britain and France, a conflict which brought a heavy responsibility on Pitt. In 1800 the Irish Union was accomplished. In 1801 the opposition to the Irish Catholics caused Pitt to resign his post which he resumed, however, in 1804. Returning to power, he exerted all the energy of his character to render the war with France successful, and found means to engage the two great military powers of Russia and Austria in a new coalition, which was dissolved by the Battle of Austerlitz. The news of this battle caused his death.

Best to go to that link, as there are more pages + info

Maybe this can help>
Louise Belosinia Pitt, "South Africa, Natal Province, Civil Marriages, 1845-1955"
Name: William Burridge
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 19 Aug 1850
Event Place: Pietermaritzburg, Natal, South Africa
Gender: Male
Age:
Birth Year (Estimated):
Spouse's Name: Louise Belosinia Pitt
Spouse's Gender: Female
Spouse's Age: 16
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1834
Reference ID: 267
GS Film number: 1259157
Digital Folder Number: 004236406
Image Number: 00284
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"South Africa, Natal Province, Civil Marriages, 1845-1955," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KDCK-DLH : accessed 02 Apr 2014), William Burridge and Louise Belosinia Pitt, 19 Aug 1850; citing Pietermaritzburg, Natal, South Africa; 00284; 1259157.

Thankyou guys. Going to take a look right away :-)

To make proper sense of the Freemantle info start here:
http://www.genealogy.amay.co.uk/

Info,

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Document 16 of 18
DEPOT Genealogical Society of SA
DESCRIPTION Pitt, SR - Gravestone.
STARTING 18001223
ENDING 18660211
REMARKS Old Grahamstown Cemetery, Grahamstown, Western Cape.
SUMMARY + Sarah Roberts Pitt. Born 23-12-1800 at Haddenham,
Buckinghamshire. Died 11-02-1866. Wife of John Pitt.

iNFO

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Document 4 of 18
DEPOT Genealogical Society of SA
DESCRIPTION Pitt, RW - Gravestone.
STARTING 18770719
ENDING 18790514
REMARKS Glenthorn Presbyterian Church Cemetery, Mancazana Valley,
District Grahamstown, Eastern Cape.
SUMMARY + Rupert William Pitt. Born 19-07-1877. Died 14-05-1879. Son
of Edward Pitt and Clara Humphrey. Grandson of Charles
Pearson and Penelope Short.

Just as an aside, the Phyllis who married William Freemantle, appears to be spelt differently, as per this extract from NAAIRS...
DEPOT KAB
SOURCE MOOC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 7/1/301
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 56
PART 1
DESCRIPTION PITT, PHILLIS. WIFE OF WILLIAM FREEMANTLE. WILL.
STARTING 18580000
ENDING 18580000
REMARKS FILED 1869.

This is so great. Thank you guys. I'm going to try and untangle the tree on Geni using the family tree on this link: http://www.genealogy.amay.co.uk/main.php?p=FF2-pittRoberts to start with.
I'm temporarily locking the profiles as I go, just to make sure nobody, including me :-) mismerges into them while I'm working.
I'll go back and unlock once we're all happy that the line is stable.

I've started a Pitt family project here:
http://www.geni.com/projects/Pitt-Family-of-South-Africa/17544
Please go and request to join if you're interested.
Will report back when I've finished the initial untangling of profiles. (Looks like a couple of hours' work.) - then we can perfect it together.

The resources you've all found are exactly what we need to fix this. Keep up the great work!

People, I've pretty much finished the untangling work. Geni had a glitch over the past couple of days that prevented internal matches showing up, so that slowed the process down a bit.
I've also transcribed the doc http://www.genealogy.amay.co.uk/main.php?p=FF2-pittRoberts descent line onto the Pitt Project. Please check for errors, and feel free & encouraged to add to the project.

Still figuring out the spare Phyllis Pitt Freemantle - using above references- , but I can start unlocking all the profiles as soon as you guys take a look and approve of the tree that's there now.

So far, the only James Freemantle I can find is Phillis' son: James Albert Freemantle (Thanks Jennifer Ann Goldhill for putting him in there.)
I might just be getting tired, but I'm ready to decided that this (No Name) is just a typo and can be deleted.

Thoughts?

I unlocked the whole line yesterday from around 2pm South African time. If you come across any profiles still locked, please yell - I was getting a bit cross-eyed towards the end there :-)

O no know I am going to through a stone in the bush. Don't ever rely on the NAAIRS spelling. It is typo mistakes a lot of times.
Example- my mom's grandmother who was - married name- MARNEWICK and maiden name GROBLER.
I couldn't find her estate for over 15 years. One day I sat here and tried Carolina Susanna Marneweck. no luck. Manewick - NO LUCK. Marnewiek- NO LUCK. MARNEWYK - no LUCK. Then struck a pot of gold - MANEWYK. There it is. Got the estate at the Archive and behold - Spelling of surname on the cover page as well as all the documents inside - MARNEWICK.
The old computers couldn't spell very good.
Even thombstone can have wrong spelling. Ouma Marnewick is BOSCH. Never married the man. Lived in S,,,,,,,- Here DN says Janse van Rensburg married name Marnewick.
Personlally I wil go for either/or. Maybe take all the sources as examples.
Nou het ek julle lekker deurmekaar. But that is the hard facts.

If it can help I found 2. KAB - Cape too far.
TAB - Transvaal - that i can look up when I get time to go -

DEPOT KAB
SOURCE MOOC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 7/1/301
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 56
PART 1
DESCRIPTION PITT, PHILLIS. WIFE OF WILLIAM FREEMANTLE. WILL.
STARTING 18580000 -ENDING 18580000
REMARKS FILED 1869.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEPOT TAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 0
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 7657/53
PART 1
DESCRIPTION FREEMANTLE, PHILLIS. BORN HOWARD.
STARTING 19530000
ENDING 19530000
REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE ERIC FREEMANTLE.

Thanks Private. I added the first one; still trying to figure out who the second might be. AS you say, the spelling is the same.

Riddle this one.

Sarah Jane Swan and Sarah Jane Wood had meen smerged causing a parent conflict - despite MPing and profile notes.
I've undone the merges, but it seems to go pretty far down and I don't have the time today to re-do.

It's not that the one version we figured out and put into the project is definitely correct; it's that merging them together without finding new sources or alternatives creates a parent conflict.

I've simply Relationship Locked for the moment - but more input is obviously needed here.

DEPOT TAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 0
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 7657/53
PART 1
DESCRIPTION FREEMANTLE, PHILLIS. BORN HOWARD.
STARTING 19530000
ENDING 19530000
REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE ERIC FREEMANTLE.

36. Eric Freemantle b. 25 April 1896, in Burgersdorp, d. 7 December 1972. He was a Stockbroker. Married 1st wife Phyllis Howard on 3 November 1921 in Johannesburg. Phyllis (daughter of H.B.M. Howard and Emmeline May Warner) b. 1 September 1897 in Cola and d. 16 December1953.married his 2nd wife Alice Letty Tidmarsh, they had no children.

Children of Eric Freemantle and Phyllis Howard were:

56 i John Eric Freemantle b. 15 April 1922 in Johannesburg
ii Ruth Frances Freemantle b. 20 September 1928 in Johannesburg, m. Phillip Alister May, had 3 children.
57 iii Lennox Roberts Freemantle b. 9 September 1934 in Johannesburg.
58 iv Christopher Roberts Freemantle b. 9 September 1934 in Johannesburg

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/regional/countries/topics/southafri...

and here is the probate record for Phyllis Freemantle (Howard) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91C-W9Q5?i=56&amp...

DEPOT KAB
SOURCE MOOC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 7/1/301
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 56
PART 1
DESCRIPTION PITT, PHILLIS. WIFE OF WILLIAM FREEMANTLE. WILL.
STARTING 18580000 -ENDING 18580000
REMARKS FILED 1869.

6. William Freemantle b. 10 November 1827 in Grahamstown, d. 19 December 1868 in Burgersdorp. Married Phillis Pitt (daughter of John Pitt and Sarah Roberts). Phillis was born in LondonEngland in May 1830. She died on 18 July 1898 in Burgersdorp. William was by trade a farmer and a blacksmith.

Children of William Freemantle and Phillis Pitt were:

i Patience Anne (Annie) Freemantle b. 1850 in Burgersdorp., d. 1912 in Burgersdorp a spinster.
23 ii Lois Emma Freemantle b. 1852, d. 1926 in Queenstown.
24 iii William Roberts Freemantle b. 29 September 1854 in Burgersdorp, d. 2 August 1923 in Welgenoit Dist. Marico, Tol.
25 iv John Henry (Jack) Freemantle b. 8 July 1856 in Burgersdorp, d.1907 in Burgersdorp. m Lizzy Bibbey in 3 June 1891.
26 v. James Albert (Jimmy) Freemantle b. 10 June 1861 in Burgersdorp, d. 30 September 1917 in Dordrecht.
vi Alice Jane Freemantle b. 28 November 1862 in Burgersdorp d. young.
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/regional/countries/topics/southafri...

The two probate records above are not listed with KAB see:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQ8-HSR6-Y?i=491&...

What else can I help with?

You can tell us if there are places we've got it wrong and need to fix on the project, in light of this info.

Sorry, Sharon, I don't have time for that now. I am about to leave on holiday for a month but I can quickly find another death notice or two if it's needed.

This horribly incorrect profile on South African Settlers (http://www.southafricansettlers.com/?p=1429&cpage=1#comment-23951) is the cause of all the Pitt problems.

Robert Pitt Senior appears to only have had three children, Robert Jnr, James and Joseph, two of whom died pre 1820.

The rest of the descendants that have been added are all actually the children of John Pitt and Sarah Roberts.

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