form of data entry

Started by (No Name) on Wednesday, March 12, 2014
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Two things which have concerned me with data entry:

1. Dates are all automatically converted by Geni to the American form of dating. When I started doing family history, I was instructed to always put dates in as day, month (first three letter abbreviation) and year. In that form, the dates could always be understood correctly internationally, and there is no confusion over which number is the date and which is the month.

2. The method Geni uses for simplifying place names leads to a lot of misrepresentation of exactly where an event happened. For instance in Germany, there are many, many towns with the same name. If you don't qualify kreis, province or some note of unchangeable landmark, you'll never know where to find the town in question on the map, such as Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt am Oder.

I was taught, also, you should always use the name of a place as it was at the specific date of the event. In other periods of time, places did and/or now exist where the name was or is now the same or different than it did at the time of the event. (I hope you can figure that one out.) There are many modern day places which have changed names over the centuries, which make the past name of a place no longer findable on any modern map. Places should be described as they are on the document concerning the event. Historical maps are plentiful, and it gives you a better feel for the history of the time. A prime example is the Elsass-Lorraine (Alsace-Lorraine) District between Germany and France. How many times has that piece of land changed national control. If you put a place in that area down as a present day address, you won't understand the difference of names and laws when it was under French rule, much less know where to go to find certain records. Many of my ancestors were born in S. Russia, which is today Ukraine, but you can't find many records or history from their time through the Ukrainian government, you have to go to the Russian or Soviet Union governments and histories to get the information you're looking for. I have a definitive book on Ukraine, printed in VERY small print and is about 3" thick, thousands of pages in length, and barely mentions the Germans who lived there, yet the Germans who lived around the north and northwest of the Black Sea made a huge impact on Russian and Ukrainian economics. They turned the Steppes into the "bread basket of Russia".

Also spellings - There are several towns named Munich and Munich with the umlaut over the u. the umlaut changes the sound of the u. If you are talking or writing to someone in Germany, they will have no clue which town you are talking about. A prime example: My parents traveled to Germany many years after my mother had emigrated from there. My mother speaks high? German, the dialect from Niedersachsen, and my father's family, being from the Schwabien part of Germany, spoke an entirely different dialect. Before they left, they agreed Mom would do all the speaking when it came to having to converse with non-family. They first went to Baden-Wuertemberg where my sister was living at the time (her husband was stationed there). Before they left there, they went to get train tickets to go to Munich (I don't know if it used the umlaut or not) in Niedersachsen. The ticket salesman kept trying to send them to the wrong Munich. After 10 or 15 minutes of the attempts to understand each other, and getting no where, Dad stepped in with his Schwabien German and the ticket salesman understood perfectly and exactly where they wanted to go, which also says a lot about the purity of this German group who had left Baden-Wuertemberg almost 200 years before this conversation took place. It also tells you many of the German dialects are completely unintelligible to each other, something my parents had forgotten from when Mom and her brother first arrived in McLaughlin, SD, where my father was born and raised. The problem between Mom's German and the ticket salesman's German, however, was one was pronouncing the name with the umlaut and the other without the umlaut.

Another problem is the over simplification of a location. For instance, my grandfather was born and raised in Heber, Soltaukreiss or Soltau-Fallingbostel, Niedersachsen, Prussia. Geni simplifies the location by not even allowing for the name of the village, and there are many thousands of villages in Germany, which are completely ignored by this automatic over simplification of address. How can you possibly know which church would have the record you're looking for if you don't know what village the church is located in? Almost all of my Niedersachsen addresses are simplified to Schneverdingen, which by German standards, is some distance from Heber and Trauen, where my mother grew up.

My point is, these little things can cause a tremendous amount of confusion in making correct connections and finding the documents for producing the correct history and connections. Newcomers can't possibly anticipate the cultural and historical changes if they have no solid reference point to work with. Even old timers to family history find such over simplification and inaccuracies extremely frustrating.

If you want to build a genuine one world family tree, you have to find a better way to keep unnecessary inaccuracies out of it. Providing historical maps is one option which would be a lot of help. Historical articles or links to historical articles on the more transitional areas might also be a big help, as long as they're not too lengthy for those who don't like to take the time to read. Such countries as Germany and Italy, which were slower in developing as nations, would be key areas to start with. At some point, even pronunciation keys for the various languages would be helpful. Most of all, lists of changes in names of places through time and a list of where to go for information during those political changes would be extremely helpful. The very most helpful thing in places of events is to not make it so very difficult to enter a very specific location, and change your automatic conversion of dates to the more internationally understood dating system.

I hope this can be of some help for the greater accuracy and ease of building a one world family tree. Please consider them.

Sincerely,
Sylvia M. Hertel
Lead, S.D., USA

Erica Howton what do you think? I think these are pretty good points. Thank you (No Name) for bringing this up. another Point i would like to add is with my nordic ancestors that not only did i encounter the date thing.. 3/21/94 for example for march 21st 1894 but also farm names see here http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~norway/na12.html

Dates can be displayed differently. Michael - can you take a look at the FAQ on the Help platform for a Link that describes it?

Also the "hover" mouse that shows the Google auto suggest, that can bs overwritten,

Sorry by the latter I refer to location suggestions. There is a pop up box that explains how locations are defined.

Personally I believe in "name of place as it was then" as being most helpful. There is however an issue with pulling in the latitude & longitude that others can explain better.

Erica Howton I'll do that.. I was unable to find any info on how they handle dates in other countries. I agree with silvia that is a slight problem.

Sylvia; I learned the date format the same way as you. This is a Geni problem probably resulting from poor genealogy knowledge by the programers and could be resolved by some simple (?) programing changes.

The location problem is a result of using an outside service for mapping. I do not deal with to many locations outside North America but even then it is a waste of time trying to enter locations in the basic location fields. If a town no longer exists, you can't enter it and if it does exist, you get it with a ZIP code or other foolishness. If you want it to be correct, enter from the Edit Location Details and you can use umlauts, hyphens and anything else you need

You might consider making a request ticket in regards to the dates.

For entering locations, perhaps, the geni programmers can re-write the location editor so that one can select to enter an historical location name or a modern location name and have a location name database to correlate between the two.

Geni pulls in the google API for location auto completion. It would be a nice to have if there was a robust historic mapping utility offering an API that Geni could license. In the meantime the advantage is storing latitude / longitude. So what I do is start with the modern entry & then edit fields to historic names.

Date views can be adjusted in account preferences, if someone cares to share the link / FAQ

Erica Howton That only works if the town still exists. I experimented the other day and the Google api would not recognize the name. When I tried to save it, the field ended up empty. What do you see is the point of storing latitude and longitude anyway?

I always use Edit location details where you can enter whatever you want.

Having access for entering the coordinates would make any program using the api able to plot the location on a map even if the location name does not exist today or even worse written in another language or alphabet.

I don't have any idea how large Google's database is but the map database in my Ford shows the location of defunct towns and stage stations. My wife had relatives in a place called Clark Station, Mills County Iowa' which was a railroad station which has been gone for years. If I wanted to drive about 2 miles across fields my nav system would take me within 20 feet of it.

All your brainstorming is good to see!

Documents don't give you locations according to longitude and latitude, and there are too many historical maps out there to be worrying about finding locations on a map. All Geni needs to do is get permission to use the historical maps, if they can't actually buy them or copy them from another source. Credits offer owners great advertising benefits for their products.

I have problems with locations even here in the USA. People will enter a township name (without "Twp" behind it), county and state. When I look for the town in that county, it's nonexistent. One day a farmer pointed out to me that it was a township, not a town, which meant the location I was looking for was actually a farm in that part of the county.

People from a century ago weren't born in hospitals, which were located in towns, nor did they die in hospitals. Many farmers still don't die in hospitals. The documents have to be very specific. Geni's programmers should allow for that specificity in a much easier format. I've seen the information concerning how Geni works their location system. That doesn't help one bit in finding the location specified. You still don't know whether the document is talking about a no longer existent town, a township or a farm, for example.

By the way, I do like Geni's map with balloons to show birthplaces of people. I found the birthplace of my mother's cousin, which not a soul in the family had a clue to, except his mother, who refused to discuss it, because of the nightmares she had gone through when she was kidnapped or captured, whatever you want to call it, by the Russians when they came into Berlin at the end of WWII.

The date view adjustments you can set in preferences, don't tell another person who is looking at someone else's profile what date is intended by the numbers given. The dates need to be standardized throughout the site, so they can be clearly understood by anyone who looks at them.

Michael P. McCann, Eldon Clark and Bjorn P. Brox (sorry Bjorn, I don't have the appropriate keyboard for the correct o) all have the best ideas. Going to FAQs, Erica, I have found to be a totally frustrating waste of time. They lack a tremendous amount of clarity.

As far as adding umlauts and my inability to type Bjorn's name correctly, there should be some sort of translator help for keyboards that allow for such language differences. I'm not sure how that can be accomplished, but it would be a major overcomer in a lot of name problems with other languages.

I have used the Edit Location option, then went back later to find it had been changed to the overly simplified location. And how is anyone going to know they can get more exact information if they hover, if there is no clear or obvious instruction concerning that option.

CLEAR instructions is a serious failing in the Geni website. If someone has months to study all the FAQs, maybe they'll learn something, but from what I've seen so far in the discussions everywhere, and what I've experienced, is that very few, if anybody is figuring anything out through the FAQs.

One of you said they had tried to find out how other countries do their dating. I can't find that comment right now, but I can tell you that modern Germans date by year, month and day, all in numbers, but that's not how they have always done it, so you can't count on that format.

Michael, how do you find dates written by people in your ancestors' neck of the woods? Using the combination of letters and numbers removes a whole lot of ambiguity. Also, another good point by Michael, years should be written as 4 digits, never two, unless you're talking about the first century AD or BC or CE or BCE, then you need to have those designations in place along with the digits.

Geni can give those simple instructions right up front, before a newcomer enters their first profile. Actually, they can do the same with place names. Put those instructions in large letters, in a different color, just like warning signs, so they can't be missed, on the very front page of the site, and in very simple words. Why make things more complicated than they really are.

Another question: Why can't Geni look at how other genealogy websites are doing things, just to get a better idea of what is successful and what is not?

Sylvia - I find it hard to get involved with what Geni could / should / would do to improve the application. I have no control & they are a small company.

I *have* used other genealogy programs & viewed many, many more. Geni works best for me not because of the interface, but because of the people.

Silvia,

About entering characters from other languages. If you locate the Language and Date settings area for your computer (probably through the control panel) you can set your computer up so you can type in more than language. If you already know this, my apologies.

Having done that, there are available things known as keyboard overlays to assist people who wish to use a keyboard set-up which is non-standard for the language/region the computer was designed for. You can find many online. I think most of them you have to pay for, but you may be able to find free overlays that you can print off and have as a handy reference until you get used to which keys / key sequences give you the correct character. I have my computer set up for German as well as English. I have not yet found (and I haven't looked in a while) a free overlay I was able to print off. I know which keys give me the umlauted vowels and the sharp S (or double s). I also know that with it set for German, I have to use the y key for z and vice versa. However, I am still not used to which keys provide which punctuation characters such as the question mark, so I switch the setting between English and German.

And it's so much better than ancestry.com !

(No Name) A couple of points
I agree about Townships, they should be entered in the Place Names field not the City field, but not abbreviated. I hate to see any abbreviations on Geni. People don't realize that abbreviations may not be understood in other countries.
Also the United States did not exist before 1776, states were territories before statehood. The United Kingdom did not exist until 1700 and who knows how many other countries names have changed. Users need to know all these things.

If you are using Windows (don't know about Mac's} there is a utility called character map which let you add letters with the character included or you can use special key combos to do it.

If there's a quick name for instance I copy and paste from Wikipedia to get the correct accent marks.

For locations in historic times I manually enter. It's really the same difference as using the auto suggest, and gives me the information I'm looking for.

And i really enjoy discussions like this one where we can better educate each other.

Yes, of course there are keyboard / character mappings in Mac. It's in the FAQ for Apple. :):)

Me personally, I have always had problems for some reason trying to pull the Character map up in applications which were not specifially document apps like MS Word. I have trouble remembering the alt-key combinations to do so. =(

Michael didn't post it but just to make sure everyone knows

Language, Localization (time zone, date input)
http://www.geni.com/account_settings/localization

Name preferences
http://www.geni.com/account_settings/name_preferences

These are on the menu "Account Settings"

Just looked at the link for language/localization. Do not remember seeing that before. Thank you Erica.

But, I was talking about settings on a person's own computer. If you set up additional languages for your computer, you can type the special characters needed for that language wherever you need to, e.g. in facebook comments and not just here in Geni.

I would have not known to look there.. I would have thought the faq would have covered it.

I believe Silvia explained about the faqs above, but before this discussion I too would not have thought to look in account settings.

Erica, I fully agree that Geni is better than Ancestry. The problem I have with Geni is it's lack of user friendliness. Ancestry has been there longer and has learned a few tricks when it comes to user friendliness, which Geni might be able to learn from, and there are other sites as well, none of which I had any interest in.

I also understand that Geni is a smaller company, but only because it's a newer company. I've learned a lot of tricks about getting through life by listening to what older people have told me. Companies work the same way. I know Geni as a whole has a whole lot more going for it, or I wouldn't be sitting here in the cold, throwing out suggestions for improvements.

Michael Brown, thank you for the tip on keyboard "cnversions" for other languages. I'll continue to look. So far I've only found one which turned out to be a dud, either that or I just didn't know how to make it workable. If you have a special place I can go to get a good, one please let me know.

I think this discussion can be used as ways to help each other and I'll let Geni worry about Geni. :):). My hope is they'll be (more) successful and able to hire people who can do things like make beautiful FAQ. So ... In the meantime, our own "tips & tricks ..."

About problems entering keys that does not exist on your keyboard: Most keyboards have an option for that, you just need to know the tricks (like numeric keyboard), but the easiest way is simply using copy/paste from the source or searching for a page which have the spelling or letters you want.

Silvia, I don't know of any off-hand, but if I find one I will let you know.

By the way, Sivlia, would you be looking for overlays for any specific languages? and which ones?

German is the primary language I have to work with, outside of English, of course. I've had a few people send me emails in German, and I can usually get the gist of what they're saying and if all else fails I've downloaded a translator which helps with a number of the European languages. But to be able to send an email in German, that's tough.

Also, I'm writing a book which includes a lot of German names, which I would like spelled in correct German. My publisher says not to worry about it, because they can make the correct spellings in the process of editing, but many of them could be easy for an editor to miss.

So, yes, I guess that might solve a number of my problems.

Thank you.

Sylvia M. Hertel

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