Thomas Whitney - Changing the ancestry of Thomas to something more likely?

Started by living Cooley on Monday, May 13, 2013
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I believe this discussion - http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Reunion_2004,_Robert_Ward,... while discussing an as yet unproved theory gives ample reason to suspect what is currently shown as the ancestry of Thomas i.e. son of Robert, grandson of Robert and Sybil Baskerville Whitney.

This would be the unproven but plausible descent for Thomas: http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Archive:Reunion_2004,_Ward...

These are my notes, on the subject.

Note that Thomas was not the son of Robert Whitney, third son of Sir Robert and Sybil (Baskerville) Whitney of Whitney, Herefordshire, as has been widely reported.[8]

so perhaps it is perhaps it is not

http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Family:Whitney%2C_Thomas_(...

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http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Family:Whitney%2C_Thomas_%...

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Married: St. Margaret's, Westminster, London -------------------- Attended St. Margaret's Church. This is the location of a family cemetery today. Thomas and Mary Bray were married here in 1583.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/h/a/Bonne-C-Sharp/WEBS... -------------------- http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Family:Whitney,_Thomas_(s1...

MY (This Profiles curator and manager) WHITNEY LINES CAN BE FOUND HERE... http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/User:Theresareneetossas

not only MY WHITNEY LINES, but OTHERS as well!!! http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Main_Page DNA Research etc.

Another Public research group, with notes from the Whitney Research Group´s Founder Robert Ward. ... found, with Thomas Whitney discussions. > http://skowlunds.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I01783&tr...

Line 1. 17. Henry I, King of England , by an unknown mistress 16. Robert de Caen, 1st Earl of Gloucester (2-17), m. Maud FitzHamon 15. Christian of Gloucester, m. William FitzAlan 14. Christian FitzAlan, m. Hugh Pantulf 13. Ivo Pantulf, m. ----- ----- 12. William Pantulf, m. Alice de Verdun 11. Rose Pantulf, m. Sir William Trussell 10. William Trussell, m. Maud Mainwaring (2-10) 9. Sir Warin Trussell, m. Maud de St. Philibert (3-9) 8. Lawrence Trussell, m. Maud Charnells 7. William Trussell, m. Margery Ludlow 6. Jennet Trussell, m. Sir Eustace de Whitney 5. Sir Robert Whitney, m. (2) Elizabeth Vaughn 4. Robert Whitney, m. ----- ----- 3. Robert Whitney, m. Elizabeth verch Morgan ap William Connection here is doubtful. 2. Thomas Whitney, m. Mary Bray 1. John1 Whitney, m.(1) Elinor -----

Line 2. 17. Robert de Caen, 1st Earl of Gloucester (1-16), m. Maud FitzHamon 16. Maud FitzRobert, m. Ranulph de Gernon, 2nd Earl of Chester 15. Hugh de Kevelioc, 3rd Earl of Chester, m. Bertrade de Montfort 14. Amicia de Meschin, m. Ralph de Mainwaring 13. Roger de Mainwaring, m. ----- ----- 12. Roger de Mainwaring, m. ----- ----- 11. Warin de Mainwaring , m. Agnes de Arderne 10. Maud Mainwaring, m. William Trussell (1-10)

Line 3. 15. Henry II, King of England, by mistress Ida de Toeni 14. William Longespee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, m. Ela FitzPatrick, Countess of Salisbury 13. Ida Longespee, m. Sir William de Beauchamp 12. Beatrice de Beauchamp, m. Sir Thomas FitzOtes 11. Maud FitzThomas, m. Sir John de Botetourte 10. Ada de Botetourte, m. John de St. Philibert 9. Maud de St. Philibert, m. Sir Warin Trussell (1-9) taken from http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Alleged_Royal_Ancestry_of_...

This is From Robert L. Ward... to me, in reference to Elinor Whitney wife of John Parentage yet, unknown (but speculated as a BRAY)

"Some of the below information is provably false. [[Family:Bray, John (s1525-1615)|John and Margaret (Haslonde) Bray]] had only one surviving child, daughter Mary (Bray) Whitney, who was executor of John's will along with her husband Thomas Whitney. There was no surviving son Thomas Bray, and no granddaughter Elinor Bray.

There is no credible evidence that Elinor (-----) Whitney, wife of [[Family:Whitney, John (1592-1673)|John<sup>1</sup> Whitney of Watertown, MA]], bore the surname Bray, or any other particular surname. We simply have no information at all on her maiden name. Apparently their marriage record has been lost, possibly in the fire-damaged portion of the Isleworth, co. Middlesex, parish register, or possibly in some other now-lost parish register.

It is impossible that Thomas Whitney of Westminster was son of Robert Whitney and Elizabeth Morgan, as that Robert was too young to have had a son of Thomas's age."

This also, Refers to the Topic Thomas Whitney etc.

Theresa,

I see that you recently posted on Family Talk:Whitney, Robert (s1525-1567) and on Family Talk:Whitney, John (1592-1673). You should realize that your messages will probably not be seen by many there. Such questions are better sent by e-mail to the Whitney Research Group mailing list. The address is <whitney@rootsweb.com>. There they would be seen by all who subscribe, which is a much larger audience. Instead of making the users find your message, and pull it from that page, you would be pushing it out to all of them, so it appears in their e-mail in-boxes.

In response to the former Talk page, I have several things to say.

First of all, Thomas Whitney of Westminster, gent., was never knighted, and so to call him "Sir Thomas" is incorrect.

Secondly, Sir Robert Whitney's second wife was probably past menopause when they were married, hence no children from that union.

Thirdly, we don't know if the family as given is complete. The records simply don't exist to prove or disprove that. We can be quite certain, however, that all the legitimate children who lived to maturity are in that list, because of the visitation pedigrees. The information in them was used to identify people who were entitled to bear the Whitney coat of arms (with or without differences), and so needed to be complete enough for that purpose. They may also have been used for other purposes of inheritance, and hence accuracy was important. Furthermore, they were compiled during the life of his children, so the information would have been gotten from those who knew the facts.

Fourthly, no progress has been made with regard to the parentage of Thomas Whitney of Westminster. It seems probable that he was somehow related to the Whitneys of Whitney, Herefordshire, but the connection, if any, still eludes us, and may never be known.

Fifthly, the general associations of various families with each other is very weak evidence of any relationships. Specific, verifiable proof is what is needed.

I recommend that you delete what you wrote on that page, or, if you prefer, give me permission to, and I'll do so myself.

In response to the latter Talk page, I have entered my comments at the beginning of that page. The website tudorplace.com shouldn't be trusted, since it doesn't give any sources for its information. Treat it as clue material, to be independently verified from documented and reliable information.

Once again, I recommend that you delete what you wrote on that page, or, if you prefer, give me permission to, and I'll do so myself.

- Robert Ward - Talk to me 03:27, 29 March 2013 (CDT)

more...
Theresa,

I saw what you added to [[Family Talk:Whitney, Thomas (s1550-1637)]]. The information you found on line is wrong. See John Whitney's English Ancestry, an essay by me on that subject. I will delete what you wrote, since we don't want wrong information on our web site. There are experts combing records in England to try to find the parentage of Thomas. There are several theories, all plausible, but none with proof. What we can prove is that Robert Whitney and Elizabeth Guillims Morgan were NOT his parents: they were too young.

I repeat, "There is a lot of false information on-line. Please be careful. Use information which is sourced, and which uses reliable sources. If there is no source information, treat it as clue material only (at best). For Whitney families, we believe that the Whitney Research Group site is authoritative, and anything which contradicts it should be questioned, if not dismissed." If you had read the essay above on the WRG website, you might not have fallen into that trap.

- Robert Ward - Talk to me 03:57, 24 June 2012 (CDT)

Teresa I don't think you are supost to do that without contacting the curators first. I know they told me if I changed anything I would be wrong as other people were involved. I didn't touch anything anyway but I was talking about it and that said it would be destroying other peoples work. I forget what the person called it but it sounded really bad, boarder line criminal! Check with a curator first. The person 's work you change could turn around and re change it back and I am sure that would upset you and make are real problem.

It took awhile but a curator did fix my problem.

I hadn´t touched anything, at all. Just so you know.
someone totally messed up the lineage to Jesus of Nazareth, too... the past week or so... he´s now related in the 24th generation... they must have cut out about 50 or so, generations... to get that result.... SABOTAGE!
I was simply, providing all of the info´s known to date on Thomas Whitney´s parentage. I´m the last person to change anything drastically...
I only added (Guilliams) to the maiden name of the mother... that´s it.... as there would seem to be Guilliams and Gwilliams and Williams as in ap Williams.... oh, it surely is confusing... but I truly, do attempt, not to add to the confustion...

Best Regards,
Renée
<3

I didn't think you did. I just know that I was told not to do anything , it would be as you say sabotage. I didn't want anyone yelling at you. I don't blame you for being upset. Nothing worst then people messing with your tree. Something has been going on lately. I think it's brought on by all this new merging. Wrong profile getting merged ete.For awhile I was disconnected from some of mine. I think I am ok now. Need to go back in and check every so often,Hope this gets straightened out for you soon. Judy

Very interesting would like to add something. I approached some of my Bigelow family history as a historian ( which I am ).What was interesting was that through putting a person's life in the exact context of the historical events that were happening at the time, I was able to find what happened to ancestors who disappeared. Many people forget that masses of well born sons, especially other than first born, headed to France and Italy, and then on to the Levant from 1100 ce -1600s. One ancestor in particular simply disappeared in England and "was heard no more from again." He is immediately found in Italy and then on to the Holy Land where he was a major figure. Yet his daughter is sent back to England to claim lands that had been previously confiscated for political reasons, and to make an advantageous marriage.Also, during the tumultuous 14th century, nobles gained and lost lands so frequently, changed allegiances, were bankrupted by continuous war and plague, that it is truly chaos to try to track people. I have found by casting my net further, and thinking about current events, I have found invaluable clues, especially in military records and benefices made in other countries.

Pamela - what a great comment. We try to take that approach on Geni through projects, which provide context & detail on ancestry and help tease out what might otherwise be forever a mystery.

Pamela, yes, it´s quite accurate that by strewing timeline events and town chronicals together, I´ve often found leads to new unknonw members of researched branches and or also, found many verifying facts, to support yet, unsupported theories or facts without documentation.... etc.

But as far as the Whitney´s go... there is a complete Research GROUP..
With a Professional Genealogist (Robert L. Ward my 8th cousin 2x removed AND my 11th cousin, through Whitney lines...)
running it, among others. And these folks have even been to the Churches of origin in Lambeth Marsh and London, which they had located through the years, on Thomas Whitney.. (St. Margaret´s in Lambeth Marsh.)
There had unfortunately, been a fire... and half of their records, were destroyed... and though, some of this Whitney Wytnee familes members, could be traced and verified, through rescured records, from this Church... others may, therefore, never be connected or located or verified...
that´s just the way it is, sometimes... with History...
someone is always trying to erase it... so they may re-write it, for themselves... more often than, not... these were the motivations, for burning Church Archives and Libraries... back in the day.

my lines, with links, to the "main players"
if you hit the COMMENTS TAB, on my profile here (next to the main profile tab and before the EDIT tab..)
you can see, what´s been exchanged, on the topic, as well.

http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/User:Theresareneetossas

Thanks so much Theresa. So far I have been amazed at the accuracy of the information I received from my cousin regarding all branches, the Whitney's were one that I did have a question about, and the Grandmesnils also have a question mark but I think I have solved it. Being a historian, it's fascinating to see all this research coming together, with new discoveries all the time. I have been to the Whitney Research Group website; one of my colonial branches are the Whitney's of Massachusetts.

Theresa, I have hit some dead links with the WRG. Perhaps they are old. I did see your page and Roberts, but his pedigree link didn't work.

They were having some serious server issues, the other day.
"Tim Doyle
FYI - Time Warner Cable is currently experiencing widespread outages, including L.A., NYC, and Dallas, which has knocked the WRG website offline. No ETA on when this issue will be resolved."
But they should work, now, I hope.

I wish to add, that this all does not necessarily mean, all is false or fraudulent, but simply, unproven and/or unlikely and/or a case of mistaken identity on part of researchers and/or mistaken descent on part of Thomas Whitney's sons/grandchildren in identifying their English ancestor.
(I don't know, why else, the "claimed" great grandchild of Sir Robert Whitney, would've gone to all of the trouble of returning to England, as this was no "quick trip" or "small change" back in the day, to attempt to receive his part of the inheritance.

I am simply, presenting (links to) the background of all discussions and proven and unproven information, as known, to date on WRG.
;-)

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