Jeanne Dureau - Looking for Sources to validate this profile's existence as a person

On Monday, 1 April 2013, Sharon wrote:
Hi there Mansell Upham & Delia Robertson,
I’m cross referencing our French Huguenot profiles on Geni.com with your really impressive data on the FFYP, and have a query about a source for which the reference is ‘personal email from Mansell Upham’ on the profile of Jacques de Savoye http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6274.htm born c 1600.
While you have this Jacques de Savoye as the father (m to Jeanne van der Zee) of the SA Jacques de Savoye progenitor, we have him as the grandfather (and grandmother).
We have an intermediary generation with their son, Julien de Savoye (m to Jeanne Dureau) as the father of the SA progenitor.
I’m including our sources below, in the hope that you might comment on whether this is an area you had already examined and discarded, or whether it might be new information worth our while pursuing.
Warm regards
Sharon Doubell

Jeanne DUREAU(DURIEAU)
Christened 30 May 1611 Aeth, Hainant, België
Father Jacques DUREAU(DURIEAU),
Mother Marie GHERSOUILLE,
Family
Spouse - Julien DE SAVOYE, c. 26 Oct 1602, Ath, Province Henegouwe In Spanish Netherlands ,
Married 23 Sep 1631 Aeth, Hainant, België
Children
• Jacques DE SAVOYE, b. 1610, Aeth, France ,
• Jacques DE SAVOYE, progenitor, b. 1636, Aeth, Hainant, France , d. 8 Oct 1717, Cape Town, Cape, South Africa
• Gillette DE SAVOYE, c. 5 Feb 1633, Aeth, Hainant, België ,
• Jean DE SAVOYE, c. 22 Apr 1646, Aeth, Hainant, België , d. 5 Jan 1692, Leiden, Zuid Holland, Nederland
http://www.greeff.info/tng01/getperson.php?personID=I59908&tree...
Sources [S360] Erasmussa.ged.
[S656] de Wet File.
[S245] Email to GenForum - Afrikaans genealogy list., June Malherbe 23.4.2003 (Reliability: 3).
[S361] GenForum Gespreksgroep.
[S62] B J Vorster.ged.
[S213] Hugenote Gedenkmuseum, Mev Alet Malan en Juna Malherbe, Juna Malherbe se e-pos (Reliability: 3).
[S315] C R Swart.ged.
[S245] Email to GenForum - Afrikaans genealogy list., Juna Malherbe 25.4.2003 (Reliability: 3).
[S483] de Wet File ABBR de Wet File.
[S479] Stamboom 7 Junie 2008.paf.

From: Delia Robertson Sent: 04 April 2013 05:40 AM
To: Sharon

Hello Sharon et al,

The personal communication between Mansell and I related to some information he shared with me about the Savoije/Snyman lot several years ago. I have checked Boucher and the DSAB Vol III, both say Jacques snr and Jeanne vd Zee were the parents of the Cape Jacques. Botha does not include anything about his parentage.

Does Juna Malherbe or anyone else in your list offer a source with citation (i.e. Church baptism/marriage register transcription of baptism/marriage records) for their information? I would want to see their source information before making a decision.

Thanks much for bringing this to my attention.
Best
Delia

From: Sharon Sent: 04 April 2013 02:03 PM
To: 'Delia Robertson'

Hi Delia
Thanks for getting back to me. I agree we need to track down the sources for this. I’ll see what we can smoke out, and let you know.
Warm regards
Sharon

From: Sharon
Sent: 04 April 2013 02:55 PM
To: 'hugenoot@museum.co.za'

Hi there,

I’m a South African Curator on the International Genealogy website Geni.com. I have question for your researchers that I’m hoping somebody there might be able to offer help with.

We’re trying to verify the parents of the SA Huguenot progenitor, Jacques de Savoy (1636-1717):
Are they Jacques de Savoye m to Jeanne van der Zee, or are these the grandparents,
with Julien de Savoye m to Jeanne Dureau as the parents?

Boucher and the DSAB Vol III, both say Jacques Snr and Jeanne vd Zee were the parents of the Cape Jacques. (Botha does not include anything about his parentage)

However, a site on the net: http://www.greeff.info/tng01/getperson.php?personID=I59908&tree... cites ‘Hugenote Gedenkmuseum, Mev Alet Malan en Juna Malherbe’ (I’ve included the page below) as validification for the use of Julien and Jeanne Dureau as parents (and Jacques and Jeanne vdZee only as grandparents.) This would indeed be new and interesting information.

So now I’m stuck :-)
Can you help us by confirming whether the museum is the source of this info, and if so, what sources we might cite to validify it?

Warm regards
Sharon Doubell

HI there !
Jeanne du RIEUX bapt.30 may 1611 X B/1 Julien de Savoye B. 1602 half brother of B/2Jacques de Savoye B. 1610 in AETH + 1636 in France X Jeanne de la MAERE

I am trying to find evidence of this to send you.

Barbara

Barbara, That would be fantastic indeed! :-) :-) Thank you.

Re. Jacques de Savoye C.1555, Ath...(Father of Julien).. His wife was a Jeanne Suslamer...His parents were Mahieu or Mathieu de Savoye & Lusette Barbieur..Jacques also had an elder brother, André, who married Sibille d'Olivier..Their descendants live in Belgium to this day.

Oooh that's useful, Private User PLEASE post the sources.

especially since the wife's name differs

I got the name of Jeanne Suslamer from a talk that was given at the British Huguenot Society...I'll have to check if this is the correct name of the organisation...I was going to join as it is based in London,(UK)..& they seem to have an extensive library you can use if you are a member...Apart from all the Talks & other things....I'll find all the details, of who gave the talk there, & put those up here for you to check..They seem to have been gathered from a reliable source...The info on Jacques's parents (Mahieu & Lusette) I think came from there too, as well as from a descendant of Jacques's elder brother André, whose family still live in Belgium, close to the Ath region, & has done some research of his own...I may also have some other information, which I'll let you know about, once I've looked into it further...

Follow Up: Most frustrating!...I have discovered the name is The Huguenot Society of Great Britain & Ireland, unfortunately I can't find either on Google or on my bookmarked tabs, the one that has the talk about Jacques de Savoye (the 1636 one)....Fortunately (for me!) I wrote down all the stuff from the page, so I could refer to it immediately....As I recall, it gives some of Jacques's ancestry, as far as Mahieu & Lusette...Also a lot about his life in Belgium, family & business connections & so on...Very interesting..I'll keep looking on the Net, to see if I can find it, but if not, I think I'll take a trip down there, & join up, then I can read it all at first hand, & get the information to you that way...The other source was Tony Moens de Hase....He's all over the place, so you should be able to track him down easily, & his information on the family....Most of his genealogy is of course connected to his branch...But at least there is the connection!....But it all does look to be reliable.

Fantastic Danielle! I'm still waiting to hear back from the Huguenot Museum - will post their reply here too.

well,thanks Daniell, this seems very interesting let's see what comes up from that de Savoie house, very important nobles in France .

Regards, Barbara

Jeanne Suslamer and de la mer is the same in french, so it is the same person !

One jacques de Savoye(Savoie in French) was "seigneur de Leuze" in 1481,( he died at 36 on 30 jan 1486) a place between TOURNAI and ATH in Hainaut ( Henegouwen ). His wife : Mary of Luxemburg.
His title was Count of ROMONT and VAUD SEIGNEUR DE LEUZE, he was the son of LOUIS 1er DUC DE SAVOIE X1433 Anne de Lusignan

Our Jacques de SAVOYE born in ATH X Jeanne de la Mare cannot be his son as he was born ca 1550., But probably the son of Mathieu de Savoye
and Lusette Barbieur whom arrived from France. Mathieu (Matthew) was from 1547 to 1557 échevin in CHIEVRES near ATH a political position.

Those nobles were most evidently from a younger branch or from another lady wife /mistress as they don't seem to have a title.

There is another Jacques de Savoie DUC DE NEMOURS, COMTE DE GENEVE et MARQUIS de ST. SORLIN born in Vauluisant 12 oct 1531 died in Annecy 18 june 1585. His wife Anne d'Este X 1566 widow /duc de Guise;
This JACQUES is famous as he was very handsome and had lots of romantic affairs he inspired the novel "la princesse de Clèves" from which a movie was made with actor JEAN MARAIS around 1964. I went to the preview and fell in love at 16 with this actor !!! Of course he never never knew me.

he was governour ofLYON south east/France and DAUPHINE from 1563 to 1571. Maybe Mathieu de Savoie comes from those people...Evidently he was not born in ATH but in France.

"SABAUDI SEMPER STAT "

(Sabaudi means SAVOIE)

"Keep searching

Mahieu was Échivin in 1547-57...But.his elder son André was born in Ath, & their descendants for generations.. (about 300 or more years)...That branch still lives nearby today)..I don't know the names of Mahieu's parents, but they would've been born circa 1500...Now what I do know is that Jacques de Savoie, Comte de Romont et Vaud(1450-January 1483) married Marie de Luxembourg in Ath...He was living there,at the time, Commander of the Troops helping Charles the Bold in his battles against the King of France. Now he seems to have been the only member of the de Savoie family who was in that region..He even married in Ath..This leads me to the conclusion, that if any member of the Savoie family IS an ancestor,.. logically, it has to be him!...He & Marie only had one daughter, who was born after Jacques died, so obviously Marie was not an ancestor..Which leads me to the next conclusion, that Jacques had a mistress, probably a local woman...Unfortunately for us, many records of births & marriages from that time & region have been lost or destroyed, but I think the name of de Savoye, in that region, would lead one to believe there is a connection...They were a wealthy well established family so had been well provided for....However there was no title, but they probably had been granted land in the region...Much later on the branch that remained there, was enobled by the King of Belgium...They certainly became prominent people in their own right......Incidentally, I discovered the names of Marguerite de Savoye circa 1550, who married an Henri Paulus..Her father was Claude de Savoye (circa 1525?)..His father was a Michiel de Savoye (circa 1500?)..They were in the Belgium(French Flanders) area....Could they be related? If this information is correct, almost certainly......I had been thinking of going to Ath, but if the records from that time don't exist, could be a wasted journey..Though it would still be nice to visit..

Barbara..I see you are living in Brussels..Have you been able to access any records? You are "On the Spot" so to speak!

Beste Danielle,

Gaan soek onder perzonen in http://www.arch.be.

Groete,

Leon (Mechelen, België)

I had a look at the State Archives, Leon, but there are so many links I don't know which to click onto!...Do you know how far back the Archives go? Would they cover the fifteenth & sixteenth century?

Re. my last but one posting: Marguerite de Savoye who married Henri Paulus..It now transpires that her daughter Catherine was born in 1550,in Bastogne Luxembourg...This would make Marguerite's DOB circa 1525.Marguerite was the daughter of Claude de Savoye, & Catherine N ..Their DoBs would be ca. 1500...So, that could make Claude's father, Michiel (if the info on him is correct) born about 1470-75..And could therfore possibly be the son of Jacques de Savoie Co. de Romont....It would be wonderful if this was true....But it could be!!

Ahh, I love collaborative research. Have we reached any conclusions about primary sources yet?

LEON and DANIELLE I have searched in the TOURNAI / HAINAUT but could't read much as my laptop is too small for thos tiny archives ! also I agree it is a bit complicated and time consuming when one is not use to this presentation...
I saw some de savoie in Leuven in Luik and west vlanderen at different times !
I must admit I am puzzled. LEON can you help ?

I'm backing Barbara!....Any further ideas Leon??

am still working on the de SAVOIE , learning a lot about history !!

concerning JEANNE DE LA MARE :
I found on the web (french dictionary ,free for once! ) :

Guillaume de la Mare et de Cavigny ( NORMANDY ) first owner of the castle.
daughters : Jeanne de la Mare
Marie de la Mare
Thomasse de la Mare X Jean d' Anglades ca 1381
son : Henri de la Mare d'Esquay à St. Nicolas + 26 NOV1402 X Jeanne +1395 .

This info is worth what it is but shows most probably the origins of our Jeanne "van der zee" de la Mare.