Christine Madeleine du Pont, SM/PROG - Not the SA Progenitor

I'm also removing her from the SA Dutch settlers and SA Progenitors projects.

Sharon
Steng gesproke is jy natuurlik korrek, omdat my ''8th Great grandmother''
nie hierdie land bewoon het nie. Maar is dit die kriteria vir benoeming as Stammoeder...sy het dan wel nasate voortgebring, wat dan tog sekerlik die prentjie verander. Sou dit nie so wees nie, sal dit heeltemal 'n ander saak gewees het..........Groete

Hallo cuzzin Linda
Dis waar dat sy ons stammoeder is (my 7de oumagrootjie), ook haar ma ens., maar dink jy nie dat die Suid-Afrikaanse stammoeder moet wees die vrou wat geboorte gegee het op ons grond,?

Yes. Hence Hans Christoffel Snijman is not our stamvader, but Christoffel his son. I think that a second consideration should be the prevalance of which surname was used at that time - so HC Snijman was also known as HC Snijder, which dimishes any claim to stamvader in my opinion.

Since she did not physically arrive in South Africa she cannot be PROG according to our definition. However she does not loose her SM status. SM means that she married a SV/PROG and that still remains true. Her title is therefor just Christine Madeleine du Pont, SM

Evan Frank Snyman i do not quite understand why you argue that Hans Christoffel is not SV/PROG. According to the data he died in SA and assume that his children accompanied him. The only way he can loose his SV status (but retain his PROG status) is if his son arrived in SA first and his father subsequently without having any more children born here.
Also see http://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-Progenitors-Matriarchs-S... and http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000026592963546

Thanks for commenting, Daan. I wasn't so sure what you were saying myself, Evan

Re Christine - Calling Private User as Curator.

Daan's reasoning is sound

Lyk my julle het dit uitsorteer
nou kan ek weer inval (net vir die interesantheid die Marguerite-Therese de Savoye is my 6e Oumagrootjie. Dit is deur die Savoye s dat ons aan die koningshuise verbind is)

Daan watter besonderhede moet mens kan voorle voordat iemand as n Stamvader/ SM kwalifiseer. My pa het 1914 as n soldaat Namibia toe gekom en toe agter gebly Hy was die eerste/of eenigste een van sy kant van die POTGIETER familie wat ingekom en agter gebly het.

My Oupa Gualluame Matthys Visser het al in die Duitse tyd hier in Namibia transport gery. Hoewel my ouma met my ma se geboorte terug gegaan het Fraserburg toe. is die ander kinders hier gebore. My ouma moet dan ook entlik n stammoeder wees en my oupa n stamvader

Waar kry mens Namibie se geboorte sertifikate en dokumentasie van die Duitse tyd.

Dit sal moontlik vir ander persone ook leersaam wees as jy dit hier behandel

Martin Andreas Karl (Dries) Potgieter are you an eGGSA member? We have had a series of articles in Genesis on the subject.

See http://www.geni.com/document/South-African-Progenitors-Matriarchs-S... linked to the Stammoeders project

Daan Botes - I can't follow the Afrikaans message from Dries very well! Can you help please?

For the sake of the members who do not understand Afrikaans.
It seems to me that you have sorted it out and now I can start with my story.

Marguerette-Therese da Savoye is my 6th Grandmother and it is through her that we are connected to the Royal house of Europe.

I asked Daan to tell me what Particulars one needs to declare a S/V/Prog. As my father enterd Namibia during 1914 as a soldier and stayed behind My grandfather Visser (My Mothers side) was in Namibia already during the German times. My Grand mother Visser went back for my mothers birth to her parents in Fraserburg Cape

I asked Daan where one can get the necessary documentation for the German time of occupation.
As he had made some Namibian S/V PROG s

Thanks Dries! Much appreciated!

Dries
I am only busy with M now as far as SWA stamvaders is corcerned and will definitely have contact you for the Potgieter side as well as the Visser side. Those I will label SWASV the moment it has been verified. You could however at any stage let me have your information and I will attend to it.

SV/PROG, PROG, SM and SM/PROG however, we only use as SA suffixes and the application of that has been explained in the links I posted above.
When I have worked through my messages. I will come back to you, Dries

I am not trying to stir up a hornet's nest which seems to have a definition drawn up by experts.

In the case of Snijman/Snyman, we have a soldier who arrived at the Cape as a Snijder from Germany, who slept with a washerwoman to the point that he was sentenced to imprisonment on Robben Island, vs his offspring who gained the name from birth and passed on the name of his birth to his offspring.

In other words, I have two issues - firstly, did Hans Christoffel Snijder/Snijman even acknowledge his child (intentionality - we are after tlking about a progenitor) and secondly, did he himself actually use the name - if he laid no claim to it, how can we ascribe it to him).

Neither of Christoffel Snijman's parents used the surname from birth, and neither of them were born at the Cape.

My own sense is that Catharina van Paliacatta was damaged woman - she was in the Cape in reprieve for the murder of her rapist, she had various children by different fathers while still as slave, and then the father of her son gets banished to the nearby penal island... I am no forensic psychologist, but there is enough evidence here to make me wonder.

But this is my opinion and I respect the concept of process and definitions. Interesting that other genealogical sites have different positions on this matter, but use the same SV/SM/PROG suffixes...

Evan Frank Snyman, these research detective puzzles are always great fun to engage in and debate. And even if we don't come to a final decision, we leave a log for future researchers to come back to and work forward from.
This particular Discussion is about Christine Madeleine du Pont, so why not go to Hans Christoffel Snijder/Snijman's profile, and start a Discussion from there?

Evan Frank Snyman one might even consider to also open up the first part of your discussion on the FB page of GGSA where a number of researchers also from oher sites might contribute

Continued Discussion on this point is now here: http://www.geni.com/discussions/139604?msg=968742#reply.