Help please

Started by Private User on Friday, February 15, 2013
Problem with this page?

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This is fantastic but ugh ... Need translating

... you asked!!! You suggesting that these projects need toi be translated? Into how many languages??

:-)

I assume from the heading that this is meant to be a guideline for the actual country portals.

I've no problems with the points that Jadra has already listed,
perhaps I'd like to see a few items rearranged,
but that is something that can be left for later.

What has not been considered is "accessibility"
i.e. how easy is it to read the page?
why ?
1) there will be viewers whose prime language is not that which is shown on the page
2) there will be viewers using iPads. iPods and smartphones

perhaps a re-think, is required,
if a clean consistent "design" is followed, with an elegant (streamlined) welcoming start page
and further sub-pages for things like help topics, news, guidelines, FAQ's, etc
which, yes, this does mean there will be a little initial planning and re-working required,
the benefits will then be;
1) easier to understand and navigate through - have "in-line" translations, where required
2) easier to maintain, changes and translations are in one place - change only smaller pages
3) easier to use on devices with smaller screens and limited memory
4) presenting fewer items on a page makes it easier to read, and quicker to use

comments?

Ivo - this is what I am after - try to experiment - rearrange things

One thing I was asked from Croatian Genealogy org is that the page should be in Croatian as this looks like to biggest hurdle for people - maybe mirrored in English or English version of the text added in parallel

ok, so you want it to look something like a pamphlet instead of a poster
where you see everything at once, and it overwhelms you at times

let me think about this and see how it will work out, I'd like to see parallel text instead of a block ot English followed/preceded by a block of Croatian - that way it's quick to see if anything is missing and also cut's down on making the pages too "verbose"

Email I could not resist to share

Concept of the 'new' Country Portal Template

What is it? Why do we need it?

I need to explain using analogies, as a kind of road map so that you may understand my way of thinking.
I've looked through a few of the Country Portals and References, and made critical notes on what I saw there. Below is the result of what I have found, what information was there, what was not there, and how the
information was presented.

This is a conceptual "overview", rather than actual "fixes", an attempt to draw attention to a need and how to address that need, rather than merely pointing out deficiencies.

Currently, there exists two kinds of information on Geni, grouped as follows;
1) the bulk of the information which are the projects and profiles of individuals.
2) the much smaller part, is the help info, the "How to", the Curators, the Wiki, and other reference info.

Most people visiting Geni, will only be interested in the first group, only if they become sufficiently interested is adding/correcting information, will they want to look at the second group of info.

If visitors are presented with information that they are not interested in, they will, very quickly lose interest and go to another site. Put too much undesired information, and things become boring, fast.

This is something that Web designers know, and they design websites accordingly. And Geni is a website.

Look at any News website, e.g. BBC or CNN, you have a "structured design" and it's logically laid out. You can quickly and easily find the news you want, maybe you'll have to navigate a few pages via links, but it's easy to work out how to get there, plus you don't waste time having to page through stuff that you are not really interested in, just so that you can get to what you want.

Consider the individual profiles on Geni, they are consistent, structured, and the information therein is divided up into various categories and stored accordingly. The really important stuff, such as name, dates, locations, that which identifies the individual is consistent, we find it where we expect it, in the Overview and it's not obscured in a description of something else. Less important details, marriages, family, etc are stored in other parts, but also in a consistent fashion, so, once we know where to find it, we can expect to find similar information for other profiles in the same place/in the same way. Other information will be stored as images or documents in the Media and Sources. All neat and tidy.

Now consider the project pages, and the Country Portals..... Whoops! now we're in a new place, it's no longer quite so neat and tidy anymore, is it?
Sometimes, it's a real pain to find out something, because "it's ALL there, in ONE place, and there's no index or structure, and now it's a real MESS"
Maybe, the situation is not quite as bad as the scenario above, but it can get to that point fast.
The sad part is that, a lot of effort has already been put into the Country Portals and References, and they're not really usable as they should be, it's become a time wasting effort to have to revisit a Portal. It's all there, yes, but to find it!

How can this be prevented and remedied?
It will take a bit of work, and a bit of education/training. (if you agree with me, of course!)

Going back to the example of the News websites, what you have there is really an index / road map which one follows until one gets to the desired news item. And that index it what makes the whole website work. It takes a lot of work to setup and maintain the index, because the news items are constantly changing as news becomes old, it is updated constantly, and eventually it is archived away and a new news item takes it's place, and more and more news items keep being added. The bad news is the large amount of maintenance needed to keep the site "up to date". The good news is that unlike a news website, Geni data is mostly static, after it has been captured.

What is missing on Geni, is the awareness of the need for those indexes and how to keep them going without excessive effort. The problem will not be cured overnight, but if people understand what needs be done and how to do it, bit by bit, the problem will be eroded away.

How? Easy.

Firstly, move the info to where it belongs. The reference info, the "How to", the FAQ, put that all onto it's own project page(s), and clearly put links so that those pages can be found when required.

Secondly, cleanup and structure the Country Portals - this is where you'd expect a visitor to land. It's necessary to group the information together logically, to keep it almost "skeletal" at this point. Ideally, you want to present the first time visitor with enough info, that the next step will be to go there, without needless scrolling down, and paging through unnecessary detail.

At this point, all you really need is a "Welcome", a very brief description, and the index (or rather, the top index). What you need to show is
1) you are here, this is what is new since dd/mm/yy,
2) you can find a), b), c) and d) here,
3) you can find help here.
That's it.
The other stuff only gets in the way, so put it somewhere else, out of the way, but show where it may be found when it is needed. Where necessary, entries will be bi-lingual, to help those members of the country's Diaspora who no longer know the language of their ancestors.

The first time visitor, will think, and decide where to go next, the repeat visitor will maybe read the news items and move on. Neither will have to page through screenfulls of detail to find what they are looking for.

Now you have most, if not all, of the info that you had previously, but it's now spread out, over different pages. There will no longer be necessary to look at everything all at the same time, when one is merely looking for one specific item, and one can still find everything, by using the new indexes.

It won't be perfect, it will require work, both to think about the new 'indexes' and then typing to implement the changes. Also the curators will have to ensure that the collaborators understand the need for a '"lean" start page, and do not add unnecessary information there.
Discipline will be needed! (may need to express this diplomatically)

I have been planning to write something before & to this thread, since I have not found couple I was searching for; Czech, Lithuanian
Start small & limited - expand outwards (triangle):
/\
// \\
/// \\\

1) Portal ='s Entry (door) from which you have a partial view (hallway) - with view of couple rooms or several elevators - that will take you further (links).

2) Standardizing on the Format of Page-1 is the Most important - and as mentioned above- phones & tablets must be taken into consideration (keep it small).

3) Brief introduction and wikipedia, etc. link

4) Links to Geni.com (about, blog), Geni.com Facebook, Geni-Help, etc. - as oppose to having that information appear on the Portal pages.

5) Links to 2-4 Discussions

6) Provide the Google translate link - that has the English > country Name (10-20) translation: - http://tinyurl.com/ab93n5u

*perhaps Geni has New plans - to Prioritize & Sort project pages - since Country Portals should be at the Top

Totally agree, Jadra, a standardised and simple format for Country Portal pages would be a great tool for Geni Users, particularly when researching in different countries where they may not be familiar with the language.

I am just a little concerned about the use of one secondary language, as I think there is probably a need for a suite of common languages, although I understand it makes every edit a lot more complicated for the project collaborators. If there is a consistent format as you suggest, the amount of work for these translations is markedly reduced as links are a consistent element, and a standard text for the other sections makes it achievable.

A merge-doc type proforma of a Country Portal could be easily created, with fields for appropriate info to be added as relevant. This would also assist in providing a ready-made database as a search and find tool for the translation, too.

I am not sure how many Country Portals currently exist, but I think it would be simple to set up a standard format for all countries that we can, perhaps with a title like "[Country Name] - Geni Portal. That way, even if there are additional to existing Country Portals, they are easily defined and a link can be provided in the Geni Portal to that other country-specific projects, perhaps with a note (eg. "English language only").

My ideal Geni Portal system would be based on a world map with flag icons, where a click on the country takes you to that portal, with flag buttons in the language key, so that the initial page was almost independent of language.

I would also suggest after initiation of the basic structure, that people were invited to caretake individual or groups of portals as appropriate. Ideally, this pool of caretakers would have language skills to allow for enquiries from indigenes, diaspora and others.

I think that such a project would be completely achievable and very useful.

I should have stopped - before getting to Languages, it;s been a long day :)

There are few options how to handle languages - best to pick 1 that is simple & easy to maintain.

http://www.geni.com/projects/Portal-Index/5878

ps. does Geni have stats on Project visitors ? Which Projects ? How many visitors visit each Project, etc ?

It was Ivo' proposal, I think two of you could set up something
We can use Croatian portal as a case study - it is among the portals with
High number of followers

We have a well functioning Norwegian portal so I ask everyone to stay away from the Coffee corner projects because it is run by someone that don't even manage the language, and no Norwegians are active there.

We have by the way also a parallel English project for people with Norwegian ancestors.

We are NOT going to change anything on our project, regardless of what suggestions and decisions that are made in this project..

I assume that we can say the same about the Estonian portal.

Hi Bjørn,
please PM me the links to the Norwegian portal and the parallel project, so that I can take a look. The link that you posted earlier was for the reference project.
thanks in advance

Re language issues, there is currently a Geni work project underway WRT to translation to Croatian. I've looked only at that one, it looks far from complete at the moment. I've NO interest in investigating further. Most modern browsers are able to "auto-translate" anyway, so for me, the language issue is a no-brainer.

Private User - I did Not expect the 2 Portals you mentioned to Re-format - no matter what was said, decided if anything - in this discussion.

cc. Noah Tutak, Mike Stangel

1) I do recall (year-ago+) - Noah's interest in Portals - and its Progress ??

2) As said above - is it possible for Geni to produce some stats on "project Visitors / clicks, views, etc." - instead of Followers

3) I do Not think Following a project - means the Project information is being used by New or Active users

4) Call it - a) Needs Analysis or b) ROI

5) It is prudent, before choosing to spend time building a Project (portal in this case) - instead of Adding more names on Geni

ps. all Discussions & Projects are Voluntary - and of course everyone can do what they want.

No one is forcing Format Standardization (simplification) - it would be nice - but democracy never is :)

Peter
The problem I have, and the reason why I am asking for help with setting portal in an optimal way, is that I do not wish to maintain it on my own.
So, from my perspective, a current layout of Croatian portal does not really work.
Maybe it does not invite participation, maybe something else is missing, I do not know.

So , I am not concerned with how many people visit or whatever, as I have that info. I have users following it, users asking to join, users accepting invitation to join, but not many who actively participate to looking after it. Maybe they think I am happy to do it forever.

My 5 cents worth, I can usually browse the profiles using my smartphone without problems, but many of the projects/portals crash, indicating to me that they are simply too big to browse on a smartphone. I doubt if I'm the only one experiencing this problem. The phone is a recent model less than a year old.

Private User - got it, and I perfectly understand :) -- ROI (I mentioned above) = Return on Investment - in this case, time spent Building Projects.

Panic - when I notified some contributors to my old genealogy site - that the site will No longer be Maintained - because I joined Geni. I did have a 3rd party Visitor count tool - in order to have an idea of the traffic to the site; 104, 681 visitors.

Many of us are too busy - to look after anything - that requires High Maintenance (except children). You know of a Croatian Portal need from people who contacted you - which is OK and I am sure Bjørn others also know the need for their Portals.

But just as we like to have "sources, proof " for names on Geni - I like to see statistics - hopefully computer generated - before I commit to spending a lot of time on Projects or anything for that matter :)

And this is where I would like Geni staff - to contribute. Is it possible to include Project Activity statistics - to Projects ??

Many of us - have spent time with New users - guiding them step by step (sometimes for weeks) - who would have found a Good Portal beneficial - never mind the time savings to us.

Being on Geni for 2 years - I have yet to find a need for a Project - when it comes to my research & work on Geni. That's me - at this time and perhaps in the future - I will find a Project that is helpful.

I am Only mentioning it - because I wonder - what is the actual Statistical Utilization (not perceived) - of All Projects on Geni.

Geni Discussions such as this should (in my opinion) -- provide, explore, new ideas, opinions, positive or negative consensus, etc. -- Otherwise - it's Information Technology saying - garbage in ='s garbage out.

** please everyone, do Not be offended by my posting.

I am Not saying - that all Projects are useless. Just that if you have created a Project or are Planning to - knowing (or estimating) its Utilization via. Statistical Reporting (just like sources) - would be nice.

I'd like to echo Peter's sentiment, a lot of work goes into building all these projects, but i often wonder how valuable many of them are to any one other than their creators.
I collaborate and follow so many projects yet for the most part the only result is that there discussions will show up on my Discussions I Follow. It's actually very rare that i visit any project pages.
As you know Jadra I have put many hours of effort into project pages myself but have often considered what the ROI on my input has been, beyond expanding my own knowledge of those topics.

I am not sure I agree that the value of any work can be measured primarily by the number or frequency of visitors. Within our own genealogical research for example, quite inconsequential projects in their own time are "gold" to us in this, just because they are the surviving remnant, and may offer that one link or clue. I salute anyone who takes the time and effort to produce a record or compilation to assist other researchers. Were I to measure how valuable a site was, it would perhaps be to put an emphasis on the uploading of source references and documents. It would be nice to have a simple footnote feature, too, so that links could be easily created to specific sources and documents. It is all very well and good to post opinions and summaries, but it is nice to see their validity and verity endorsed. Surely the true value is in accuracy and completeness of any reference.

I wasn't suggesting a hit counter popularity contest, i'm just curious how worthwhile these projects are, we've worked together and i gained knowledge and personal satisfaction from that project. But i would approach that project differently dependant on if we were doing it for our own sakes or creating it as a piece of information for other people.
Randy was doing a clean up of the projects a few months back, i wonder how that got on, literally thousands of projects created but never editted. My concern is of the thousands of Projects that get started and DO get built up does anyone actually look at them? Certainly some are very busy and great tools but there must be many where one person slaves valiantly but never actual produces anything useful becuase it is not viewed/used by anyone else.

Private User in terms of self maintenance, I know how you feel about FaceBook, but our Country Portal on Geni tends to act just as an overview list of all SA projects (That everyone adds their projects to, sorted according to subject matter and timeline) - but our FB group acts as the conversation, and basically runs itself.

as you say @Alex many projects aren't visited often, but neither are the individual pages of the reference book. my feeling is that, as long as you have a good index - you know people can find them when they want the info.

Alex Moes Perhaps a round about way to estimate traffic to Geni Projects is to view the Geni Wiki Pages, which are in their own way similar to projects but not as appealing and interactive.

http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Special:PopularPages List of 50

eg.
http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Jewish_Dynasties over (69,121) visits
http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Notables (60,722)
http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Biblical_Tree_Merge (32,450)
http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Kings_of_Ireland_Merge (30,901)
http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Curators_on_Geni (21,938)
http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Mayflower_Passengers (19,313)

To see complete list click link above.

Malka Mysels - thank you for pointing the hits.

Mike Stangel - how difficult would it be - to include a counter - with every New project ?

I don't want any counters. The only result you get is that the responsible people starts cheating and forget that this is a site for genealogy.
We have seen too many terrible actions, even from curators, to climb the top-10 lists.

"people ...... forget that this is a site for genealogy. "
Agree, already see too many signs that people think that it should be a substitute for Wikipedia and MySpace.

This is the basis for what prompted my email to Jadra, to keep the essentials (what relates to genealogy), and the rest of the stuff can be stored as documents or be links to external sites (and those links are clearly LABELED as such) .

I dont want any counter's either

Ivo - please created a sample so we can test it

I'm not the person to decide whether to add features to the site. The official way to do this is at http://help.geni.com/forums/337266-feature-requests

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