Pre-1600 Perche Boucher Family Tree

PS.. More to this discussion

Accoring to the book “Tourouvre et les Juchereau : un chapitre de l'émigration percheronne au Canada”, Jeanne Mercier was the sister of Marin Mercier and Marine Mercier.

Her father Jehan, Jeanne & her siblings sold some land on the 8 May 1559. Jeanne and her husband Jean Boucher are habitants of Feings.
By the 4 July 1569, Jean Boucher is dead. This is when Jeanne & her brother Marin entered into another agreement concerning some property. This Jean Boucher died between 8 May 1559 and 4 July 1569, in Tourouvre.

There is also an agreement, date 11 April 1553, between Francoise Roussin, widow of Jehan Boucher and her brother Nicolas. This Jehan Boucher died before April 1553.

So. clearly, Francoise Roussin and Jeanne Mercier were not married to the same man. These are two different people.

Me again with more information.

According to the Programme de Recherche sur l'Émigration des Français en Nouvelle-France (University of Caen in Lower Normandie) on research using parish records & notary records..

1. Françoise Paigné had been married to Robert Jousee before her marriage to Jacques Boucher. This is based on a record of her being a godmother in 1577.

2- The marriage date quoted for Jacques & Françoise of 4 July 1582 is
incorrect. That date is based on baptismal record. Jacques was godfather to a child born to Marie Paigné (presumed sister of Françoise) Jacques Bourillon.

3- The father of Jacques is presumed to be Jean Boucher,mother is unknown. This is based on a notary record dated 30 July 1611 inwhich Jacques Boucher & Françoise Paigné were inheritors of a Jean Boucher. Gaspard Boucher represented the inheritors of his parents in this document.
His parents and grandfather did not die on 30 July 1611.

4- Gaspard is known to have one brother Nicolas. No information on any more siblings.

Yes, being a historian and genealogist htis seems to be highly suspect. I descend from the Boucher de Piscop and the Bouchers of Geneva. Both families were notable and respected but I can find no feasible primary or secondary sources to warrant an English bride. It was, of course, quite feasible for a possible marriage between the two. The english and French, even then, lived in each other's countries. An English knight's daughter might well have married a bourgeois - in this case the daughter does not have a dowry. I shall, despite the initial excitement of the last few days, not be adding the english into my very large tree, as yet! BTW Most of the Hugenots who fled in the 16th century were rich and well connected - this is what contributed to the weakening of the French economy.

Hello Peter-Gabriel,

Thank you.
I agree.. Marriages across social levels did occur but I have not found any proof that this particular marriage took place.

Considering that the Bouchers of Perche were tradesmen and had not necessarily risen to the ranks of the bourgeois and were also Catholic, it does not make sense.

What I think has happened is that people have confused several different Boucher family lines and have copied errors from unsourced trees. (I contacted several owners of trees with this information but no luck so far).

I posted this research because the link to the English bride seems to be a commonly used link between Canadian, American and French trees.

Thanks Again for your comments
DLD

Yes, I am trying to burst this bubble - it makes me very angry that people tend to surmise that because someone has the name Bouicher then it must be the same as the one married into the lower gentry....a common mistake by amateurs. I'm not. BTw the appelation 'bourgeoisie' is the equivalent of the 'middle class' which comprises, amongst others, tradesmen. I don't think it is as much confusion but more wishful venture! I could ask on one of the lists I belong to - Gen-medieval - full of medieval scholars and professional genealogists.

Thank You

Well, people like to think their family were more "regal" than they were but I thnk it is more of a case of lack of research skills and tools. They come across on the internet references to a prominent family with the same or similar surname and vola... And sometimes it is a simple mistake and that mistake takes on a life of its own.

However, there is enough to be proud of the Marin and Jacques Boucher and their significant contributions to the founding of Québec and Canada as it is.

Thank you again for your help

Alice Halsam's father died in France and Alice was born in France according to the Geni profiles. Wouldn't that make it more plausible? MRA is managing the profile for John Halsam. She seems to be a good source of information.

Ther is plausibility, probability and fact! Yes, If there are primary or secondary sources that confrim that this woman existed, lived in France and married a man by the name of Jean Boucher, then that is great! But one cannot create a tree out of plausibility or probability, each date and event needs to be recorded in some source. The marriage of 'knightly' daughters to a tradesman happened all the time. Remeber, just because a man carries the title of knight he is not noble, especially in the English system. The only nobles are those who carry hereditary titles of honour, that of a Knight can ahppen to anyone - for instance a butcher who is a simple man at arms but rescues a senior noble in Battle, can be knighted - it is merely public recognition

My tree merged with the World Tree and now I have Alice Halsam as an ancestor. Everyone wants to merge profiles but then when they do this kind of thing happens, we get hooked up with ancestors that may not even be ours.

The University of Caen in France has a site where they are publishing research into the origins of the immigrants to Nouvelle France from France. For Gaspard Boucher, they have said, based on research in the records in France, that is grandfather might be Jean Boucher. That is based on a notary record. Gaspard Boucher's father Jacques was an inheritor of a man named Jean Boucher. The name of Jean Boucher's wife is unknown.

Since there are no baptismal records that survive for Gaspard Boucher nor has his wedding record has been found... the line stops at a Jean Boucher, with a question mark. That is it.

Even if a English girl named Alice had married a Jean Boucher, there is no proof that this Jean Boucher was an ancestor of Gaspard or Marin Boucher.

So, I have asked that all this be cleaned up in Geni.

I plan to take a look at it this week, but let me ping a few of the other French Canadian curators, just to make sure we have additional eyes on it, as I expect this is something we'll need to watch in the future as merges take place. So we all need to be on the same page.

Private User, morel, Paul Louis Doré, Private User

Sorry Janice but just because it is in World tree,dioes not mean it is correct. The World Tree is just a compliation of trees on the net, people copying the same errors from tree to tree.
And so it it is on Geni. Geni is not known for its attention to accuracy.

I have yet to find any proof of the existence of an Alice Halsam.. well, I did, but that Alice lived a long time after this Jacques Boucher.

Where is the proof that Alice Halsam married this Jean Boucher. and had a son named Jacques? There is NO proof.

We do not know the name of the mother of Jacques Boucher. We suspect that his father was named Jean Boucher., based on the notary records. That is all we know.

Jacques's marriage record has been lost (and I looked for it in The French records). His baptismal record has also been lost (it might have not even been recorded). So, we DO NOT know who his parents were.
The researchers at University of Caen have found a notary record listing Jacques and his wife as inheritors of a Jean Boucher.,living in Mortagne. They have not found any reference to a Halsam in the records, by the way.

Coming up with scenarios to make things "fit" is not research. You can only go with the facts. And the facts are ,, The Boucher tree STOPs at Jean Boucher and even him is questionable.

The French Canadian tree has already been done for us. We should based what is posted in Geni to what has been determined by those who have access to the records, in Quebec and in France.

http://www.ourfamtree.org/browse.php/Jehan-Boucher/f125887

Jehan Boucher, Master Mason and Architect for the King

but it can be a fakery page

i go with Madam DLD i doubt this line of Alice Halsam Jean Boucher

I need to dig into this further, but like DLD, I'm not seeing anything authoritative that supports these connections to Jean Boucher, beyond Jacques being his son. Also, I'm not sure what the sources are for all these children of Jacques. We have Gaspard and I've seen references for Nicholas, but not much on the others. Has anything new showed up on connections via DNA testing? If we don't find anything, I'm fine with breaking these connections and trying to document with curator notes the end of the line. We may need to add empty "Unknown" MP profiles to help prevent merges from reintroducing the relationship.

Hi Jeff,

I'm not really at ease looking up ancestors who did not come to Nouvelle France.

I agree though with DLD that proof is proof butdeductions are useful as long as so stated.

Good Luck !

You all seem to have the matter well in hand, so I trust your research. I'll be here if you need help with any disconnections or merges...

I go ahead and take care of this. While I have an understanding, Private User, you've spent the most time reviewing the research, can you outline what you think needs to happen here? That would be helpful so I don't break useful connections and make the needed notes.

Yes, I will Jeff.. I'll prepare a list of notes and post it in a day or two.

Thanks
DLD

POST #1
Post #1
I am restricting myself to the Canadian Boucher tree. Perhaps some else can make the appropriate changes for the Swiss Bouchers.
Sources are
Programme de Recherche sur l'Émigration des Français en Nouvelle-France (PRÉFEN),
and Fichier Origine
http://www.fichierorigine.com/detail.php?numero=240483
http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/prefen/fichePion.php?id=12356&theme=...
http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/prefen/notices/7283pb.pdf
By the way.. Wikitree is NOT a credible source. After all the disconnections are done..can we lock down the profiles so that we do not get into this mess again.

Boucher
Gaspard Boucher
Corrections:
1- Date of birth unknown. It is now listed as Jan 1, 1595. Change it to about 1599
2- Place of birth is incorrect. It is Mortagne-au-Perche (Orne).
3- Date of Death is also not know. It is assumed to be between 20 May 1662 to 1666. A record of his death has not been found.
4- Date and place of marriage: The two sources differ. One has the date Dec 12, 1619. The other has the date 1619. I would go with the date provided by the PRÉFEN. The place makes no sense, given that they were living in the Orne, not Mamers.
5- Occupation: master carpenter
6- Marriage date is unknown. I would go with the PRÉFEN and not Fichierorigine but I am not too concerned with that.

POST #2

@Nicole Lemaire
Nicole Lemaire

Corrections:
1- Put Lemère as an alternative spelling of her name.
2- She was not BORN on March 10, 1595. She was baptised on that day. I would put born CIRCA March 1595. We cannot assume that she was baptised the day she was born.
3- Get rid of the maiden name.. Her only name was Lemère., no Boucher.

@Nicolas Pierre Lemaire
Nicolas Lemaire

1- No proof that his name was Nicolas Pierre, only Nicolas.
2- The death date is questionable..It is not listed by either of my two sources.

Castrie (Gastrie)
Marie Gastrie
1- Her name as per the PRÉFEN and Ficier Origine was Gastie, NOT Castrie. Also, get rid of the Lemaire. She only had ONE last name.
2- We have no proof that the Marie Gastrie who had a daughter named Nicole also married a Pierre Delorme. We do know that Nicole had a sister name Francoise who married Jean Dodier. Francoise's daughter Jeanne Dodier married Adrien Jolliet in Trois-Rivières.
I am trying to figure out where the marriage to Pierre Delorme came from. (But I do understand how the name Pierre got added to Nicolas Lemaire),
http://www.fichierorigine.com/detail.php?numero=410017
3- Death date is questionable. It is not listed by either of my two sources.

Post #3

@Jacques Boucher

Jacques Boucher

1- date of death is UNKNOWN. On July 30,1611, Gaspard was representing the heirs of his parents in a notary act. So, Jacques Boucher and his wife would have been already died.
2-Place of death is incorrect. It is Mortagne-au-Perche
3- Jacques had at least two sons.. Gaspard and Nicolas. That is all that is known.
so.. disconnect from Jacques Boucher and Francoise Paigne.. these following 'children profiles' profiles:

@Nicole Boucher
Nicolas Boucher

@Etienne Boucher
Étienne Boucher

@Charles Boucher
Unknown Profile

@Jean Boucher
Unknown Profile

@Pierre Boucher
Unknown Profile

@Antoinette Boucher
Antoinette Boucher

@Adrien Boucher
Unknown Profile

@Louise Boucher
Unknown Profile

Boucher
Thomas Boucher

Post #4

@Françoise-Marie Paigné
http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7oise-Marie-Paign%C3%A9/6000000...

1- Her name was just Françoise no Marie. Could we also disconnect that picture. People might think that is an actual portrait of her-which it is not. Keep her first husband Robert Jousse.. that is correct.
2- That date of birth is problematic. There are NO baptismal records for Mortagne au Perche in the 1550s that still exist. (I will look again but... I did searched the records on-line for that area. They did not go back that far. Plus, the PRÉFEN is silent on when she was bornMy suggestion is that we put a birth date of before 1587 based on the fact the girls had to be at least 12 to marry and Gaspard's estimate year of birth is estimated to be about 1599.
3- Her parents are UNKNOWN as per the PRÉFEN. The PRÉFEN lists two potential sisters (Marguerite and Marie) for Francoise, based on baptismal records but NO parents.

Disconnect her from

@Nicolas Paigné
Nicolas Paigné

and

@Marie Castrie

Marie Castrie

The line ends at Francoise Paigne. No proof for her parents and grandparents listed on Geni.

Note that since the record of her first marriage has not been found, we have NO IDEA who her parents were, even if we did have the record of her second marriage.

@Jean Boucher
Jean Boucher

It is suspected the father of Jacques was named jean but the name of his wife is unknown. I know where name of three of the women came from. There was a Francoise Roussin married to a Jean Boucher and a Jeanne Mercier married to another Jean Boucher living in Motagne-au-Perche at the same time but we have no way of knowing if either Jean is the Jean who had a son named Jacques. No Proof. Also, Geneva Bouchers have been mixed in too.

1-For the French Canadian Tree...

The easiest way to correct this is to disconnect Jacques Boucher from Jean Boucher and any of his wives COMPLETELY. Create a new profile for a Jean Boucher with a unknown wife and LOCK DOWN both profiles down. I would add a note that this connection is only a probable connection. Jean would have died before 1611.

2- Delete

@Jeanne Mercier
Jeanne Mercier

Although we know that she was married to a Jean Boucher.. she is a dead end.

3- Create a new Jean Boucher married to

@Francoise Roussin

Unknown Boucher
and disconnect her from the Jean Boucher married to

@Nicolle Girard

Nicolle Girard

and to

@Jeanne de Saint Aubin

Jeanne de Saint-Aubin

and the parents (Geneva Tree)

@Jehan Boucher

Jehan Boucher Dit Lamarche

@Jehanne Bournier

@Marie Madeleine Boucher

Marie Madeleine Boucher

No proof that Jacques Boucher had a sister named Marie Madeleine Boucher. Disconnect her from Jacques.

bravo this is genealogy :)

here xtra information it can be usefull and it fit Madam DLD awsome job into those line

http://genealogistes-associes.ca/histoire/ancet-racines/Boucher.php

Working through this.. one fyi note. According to historians, the family home burned with Nicole and her husband Gaspard in Trois-Rivières. (File Origin). Sources put Nicole's death between June 19, 1652 and 1666. But then list Gaspard death between 20 May 1662 to 1666. If the two died together, then shouldn't Nicole's death be changed to match that of Gaspard (or vise versa). The two dates should match as if they died together and we have evidence of one living on a certain date, we can assume the other also lived.

Oh, and thanks DLD for providing the detailed list! :)

As I finish this up, feel free to add sources and point out any additional problems.

Jeff, we do not know for certain when Nicole and Gaspard died..

from..

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/boucher_pierre_2E.html

it is surprising that no trace is to be found anywhere of the last years and death of Gaspard Boucher and his wife. Pierre Boucher himself never alludes to these details. On 19 June 1652 Nicole Lemer is referred to as being a godmother at Trois-Rivières; subsequently there is no further mention of her. As for Gaspard, it has been asserted that he died in a fire that destroyed his house; this is based on a somewhat ambiguous statement made by his daughter Madeleine, who on 27 June 1668 affirmed that the title to the land grant of 1646 “has been burned with the said Gaspard Boucher’s house, in which it [he?] was . . .” Whether she is talking about the title or the owner himself we do not know, although if it had been the latter the Relations or the parish register would have mentioned it. The last reference to Gaspard Boucher is on 20 May 1662, when he brought an action against Jacques Besnard. At that time Pierre Boucher was in France.``

In French..

`` Madeleine, sa fille, épouse d’Urbain Baudry, déclare le 27 juin 1668 que le titre de concession de 1646 « a esté bruslé avec la maison dudit Gaspard Boucher, dans lequel il estoit ``

As you know, there is not a separate pronoun for it or he in French; it depends on the context.

Plus, although I have seen the assertion that Nicole also died in the house fire, but the above statement says nothing about Nicole.

All we know that Nicole died between June 19, 1652 and 1666 census
and Gaspard..between 20 May 1662 and 1666 census.

The devil is in the details!! PREFEN also confirms this.

If you need some help making the corrections.. I would be happy to help.

DLD

PS.. Thanks Martin

A date for Jean Boucher is often listed as 1521 or 1522. Do we know which Jean Boucher that date is sourced from?

I expect there is still at bit to figure out on this Jean Boucher

I have no idea where those dates come from. People seem to pull them out of thin air, with nothing to back them up...But, as long as the estimates are backup with some explanation..I thik it is OK.

Here are the estimates, with explanations, I have in my data base. Others may have other estimates.

@Gaspard Boucher.

YOB...circa 1599

according to

http://www.fichierorigine.com/detail.php?numero=240483

@Jacques Boucher

(father of Gaspard).

YOB between 1529 to 1568

We have three pieces of information to go on. We know that Jacques would have been atleast 14 to marry as per French law at the time and that he was named godfather in 1582. I haven`t found a mimimun to be a godfather for that era but being a godfather was serious business. He could have been called upon to raise the child,if something happen to his parents. So, it is logically assumed he would have been at least the marriage age for boys-14.

So, I am assuming Jacques would have been at least 14 in 1582,,, making his estimated YOB as BEFORE 1568. You can, if you want, put an upper year on that estimate.. Say, he would have been younger than 70 when Gaspard was born.. YOB between 1568 & 1529.

@ Jean Boucher

presumed father of Jacques Boucher

YOB.. between 1511 & 1554

Based on Jacques`s estimated YOB... Jean was born before BEFORE 1554. (1568-14). He would have been at least 14.

Since we know that he died Before 1611, he probably was younger than 100 when he died or YOB of after 1511..

@Francoise Paigne

between 1543 & 1565

She was named as the godmother of a niece in 1577. Again, given the importance of the role of godmother, it is logical to assume that she was at least the mimum age to marry-12. So, I would out her YOB as before 1565. Also, given that she would have been less than 56 (oldest age for menopause) when Gaspard was born, she would have been born after 1543 (1599-56).