François II du Plessis, Seigneur des Breux, de La Carrelière et de Thou - Marriages to: D'Anne Le Roy & Marquerite Boilesue - have we discussed this already?

A speed read over the du Plessis project http://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-family-of-South-Africa/10778 discussion: http://www.geni.com/discussions/106997?page=2
Shows me that Private User and Nicola Bensimon were also very useful participants - Do any of you remember why Anne leRoy rings such a loud bell with me?

& A SLOWER READ PRODUCED THIS:

Heather Faith Knobel (MacGregor)
27/5/2012 at 1:34 PM
If Francois du Plessis de Mornay (1510-1560) was indeed Armond Jean II du Plessis (1542-1640) father and he had three wives. Francoise de Charge (1520-) plus d'Anne Le Roy (1512-) plus Marguerite Boilesue (1509-).
Could Judith Anne have not been Jean II half sister. In the Mormon register they are listed as husband and wife and also brother and sister. This could just be an error, but it might be worth looking at.

Sharon Lee Doubell
28/5/2012 at 11:30 AM
Heather Faith Knobel (MacGregor), we've established that he definitely didn't have 3 wives - see this discussion:
http://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=793056

There has been a confusion (perpetuated, I think by the LDS registry) between these two cousins; where the former has accrued the wives of the latter;

Updated links for them are: Private User...
Is the de Richelieu cousin (mother: René Eveillechien, and not the SA direct ancestor) who had Anne Le Roy and Guyonne de Laval as wives.

His cousin http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-II-du-Plessis/600000001664... is the SA ancestor (son of Madeleine de Champropin) who married Francoise de Charge.
(I see his connection to Charlemagne is still broken, though – Will try and figure out why later in the week)

I’ve put a family tree on this project: http://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-family-of-South-Africa/10778.

EXCERPT FROM DISCUSSION MENTIONED ABOVE:
http://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=793056
Danielle le Marais
21/5/2012 at 11:40 PM
Sharon ..I think you'll find this "wife" Marguerite de Boisleve, is in fact the wife of Joachim de Charge, & the parents of Francoise...The mistake was linking Francoise & Marguerite as wives to the wrong Francois initially...Having found some names & trying to make them fit...But I think you'll find the "wife" will in fact be the mother/mother in law!

Alexander Armenis
21/5/2012 at 11:55 PM
Here is a published family registry from 1868 that confirms what we are saying here, namely that there are two men named Francois II du Plessis, the one married once on 22/03/1541 to Francoise de Cherge; while the other Francois II du Plessis married on 25/01/1489 to Guyonne de Laval and on 31/03/1506 to Anne le Roy.

link: http://books.google.co.za/books?id=PzelhioHoMQC&pg=PA332&am......

Danielle, well done ... I agree, Marguerite de Boisleve is the same person as the alleged wife Marguerite Boilesue, for which there is no source.

Took a quick look and found a d'Anne Le Roy born about 1512 who was one of the wives of Francois du Plessis along with Francoise de Charge and Marguerite Boilesure.
Is this the one you are thinking of?

Hi Heather. Yes, likely - but the question is how that links with the research we did (cf above) in may?

Sharon Doubell I don't think you meant to tag me here, unless you discovered something about my ancestry that I didn't know ;-)

Hi Sharon, if memory serves me there are two very different Francois du Plessis characters. The one that concerns all South Africans married Francoise de Charge whereas the other one married Anne le Roy and is related to Cardinal Richelieu.

Note: Marguerite Boilesue is a mistake ... she was never married to a Francois du Plessis. Somebody copied and pasted her name by mistake. If memory serves me correctly Marguerite was Francois's mother or mother-in-law, very easy to check.

The above info has been verified. The lasting issue is the actual link between Jean P du Plessis (SA stamvader) and the family in France. No hard evidence yet!!!

Cuzzin Alex

Yo Cuzzins. I agree with Alex's comment above re Francoise de Charge. Marguerite Boilesue was Francoise de Charge's mother, she was married to Joachim de Charge, according to my information. I seriously think one of us is going to have to dig deep and venture forth to Poitier to do some research on Jean Prieur. The other mystery person is Judith Ann de Mornay the wife of Francoise de Charge's son, Jean du Plessis. If we could nail these 2 people down, we would know more about our Dup roots. I have read Charlotte Arbaleste's memoires now (she was the wife of Phillipe de Mornay du Plessis Marly) and she doesn't mention anywhere in there a daughter or sister called Judith Ann. However, she does talk about Phillipe's brother, Pierre de Mornay, Seigneur de Buhy & Governor of St Lienart, Limousin. In one of the sources, Judith Ann us referred to as Judith Ann de Lienart Mornay from Buhy. Judith could have been a sister or daughter of Phillipe or Pierre. They had a sister called Ann de Mornay and Phillipe had a daughter also named Ann de Mornay. But the date of birth would make it more possible that our Judith Ann was a sister of theirs and not a daughter of either. I sent an email to the University of Poitier asking if Jean Prieur was a medical student there back in the late 1600's Needless to say, I have had no response. (and I wrote it in google-French too!)

Thanks guys - Hope that helps Linda Magdalena Engelbrecht. Sorry Private User :-(

I have done a bit of research on Buhy. It is a TINY little village, population 200 people currently, so very likely lower than that back in the 1500's. Which makes me think that Pierre de Mornay Seigneur de Buhy and Judith Ann de Mornay du Plessis from Buhy must have been connected somehow. That is of course if there was such a person at all...being as how none of us can find anything concrete about Judith Ann it may be BS. I got a response back from my enquiry to the University of Poitier - in french - havent goggle-translated it yet but the gist is that the Uni doesnt keep old arcives records, but it seems that I have been given the name of a person there who may be able to help.

This is the message I received...I will contact martine bobin and see if she can help! Maybe she can tracl Jean Prieur for us.
Hello,
University of Poitiers no longer retains its old archives. You can find documents that will be useful at the Library of Poitiers (martine.bobin @ mairie-poitiers.fr) and the Departmental Archives of Vienna (http://www.archives-vienne.cg86.fr/627-contact . htm).
Sincerely,
Anne-Sophie Sleigh

Bonne Chance! Nicola.....It would be great to discover something...Thankyou for your efforts on this conundrum!

I agree - we need to do a fact-finding genealogy cruise to France.
Whose on board? :-)

Im on board...would absolutely love to do something like that...just hang on while i run outside and water the money tree.....

:-) water mine too :-)

I found an article on Wikipaedia - see snippet below. This must be the St Lienart that Amalia du Plessis mentions as being the birth place of both Jean Prieur and the illusive Judith Ann. She talks about a village called St Lienart or St Lyanard , Limousin. Maybe they have an archive we could contact to ask for info pertaining to our confusing rellies? Amalia also says that Jean Prieur practised medicine in Lolene-et-Cher-Touraine in Berry. I am trying to find this place as well, so far no luck. I wish we knew where she had got her facts from! I spoz the point I'm trying to make is that there really was a place called St Lienart. I had my doubts.

"Leonard of Noblac or of Limoges or de Noblet (also known as Lienard, Linhart, Leonhard, Léonard, Leonardo, Annard) (died traditionally in 559), is a Frankish saint closely associated with the town and abbey of Saint-Léonard-de-Noblat, in Haute-Vienne, in the Limousin (region) of France."

Good thoughts, Nicola. Anyone looking for a research project in their spare time... This one is waiting for the next time any of us have some free time...

Do any of you have a subscription to ancestry.com? If so, I googled "Berry, France" births and it took me to ancestry.com and I searched for the surname Prieur and there were 3 or 4 Jean Prieurs that came up. Might be interesting to see what details are supplied but I dont have a subscription for ancestry.com anymore. If any of you does have one, please could you check and maybe paste your findings here if they are worthwhile? There are archives in St Leonard but they are only accessible by snailmail - I might sit this weekend and draw up a letter in google-french and post it to them next week. If you don't ask, you don't get. I am still trying to find the town where Amalia says Jean Prieur practised. Lolene-et-cher doesnt exist according to what I can find on the internet. Nothing even closely resembling that name. Wishing all you Cuzzins a good Xmas!

Naissances, Haut-Berry, France, 1557-1907 Upper Berry, France Births, 1557-1907 about Janne Prieur
Name: Janne Prieur
Birth Date: 14 juin 1640 (14 Jun 1640)
Birth City: Saint-Laurent
Father: Silvain Prieur
Mother: Marie Mabilat

Naissances, Haut-Berry, France, 1557-1907 Upper Berry, France Births, 1557-1907 about Jeanne Prieur
Name: Jeanne Prieur
Gender: féminin (Female)
Birth Date: 30 oct. 1676
Birth City: Subligny
Father: Louis Prieur
Mother: Perrette Léger

Naissances, Haut-Berry, France, 1557-1907 Upper Berry, France Births, 1557-1907 about Jeanne Prieur
Name: Jeanne Prieur
Birth Date: 26 nov. 1703
Birth City: Menetou-Râtel
Father: Louis Prieur
Mother: Jeanne Colleau
Comments: P:manoeuvre, p: Me Joseph SOUCIET, m: Jeanne GRESSIN, Page=601

I have found a Francoise Prieur, also born in St. Laurent in 1594..No mention of parents, only spouse & children, but presumably related to Janne.

There has been so much incorrect info posted on various different websites by various different South African duP rellies about Jean Prieur du Plessis. I wish we would delete all the crap & leave only the facts. Here is a classic I read on one of the family tree websites: apparently Napoleon Bonaparte invited Jean Prieur back to France because he was nobility. Jean Prieur died in 1708. Napoleon was only born in 1769. So this is clearly rubbish. I am planning to go to the UK to visit my sister in 2014 (depending on how fast the money tree grows) and I will set aside a week to scrounge around in Poitier, Buhy, St Lienart etc and see what I can find. I am frustrated that our hands are tied & that we are dependent on all the junk on the internet. Grrr. Oh ya, have a happy New Year, Cuzzins!

I can only concur with everything you have written Nicola!

Cuzzins
I see that all of you have been very busy.
I am impressed with the teamwork! Happy New Year to you all!

:-)