Paul Maree / De Mare De Salgas - Has Pama got the wrong Mares here?

The note we have on the profile about this reads: Hierdie familie is afstammelinge is van die ou Hugenote en volgens die heraldikus C. Pama van Kaapstad was die oorspronklike spelling van die familienaam: De Mare De Salgas. Die familie se voorsate was blykbaar eers in die suide van Frankryk gevestig. Die van is eers later, maar blykbaar voor of met die aankoms aan die Kaap, vereenvoudig na Maré. De Maré beteken eintlik strand- of kusbewoner waaruit afgelei kan word dat die voorsate se woonstreek waarskynlik naby die see was

Translation into English: This family is descended from the old Huguenots, and according to the heraldic scholar - C. Pama of Cape Town - 'De Mare De Salgas' was the original spelling of the surname: The family's ancestors were apparently only settled in the south of France. The surname is later simplified to Maré, but possibly this happens before or on arrival at the Cape. De Maré actually means beach or coastal resident, from which can be deduced that the ancestors' home was probably near the sea.

Alistair Moncur Knox message me this:

Dear Sharon,

I am contacting you about this profile: http://www.geni.com/people/Paul-Maree-De-Mare-De-Salgas/60000000069...
Entry on Ancestry.com has his birthplace as Montherme,Ardennes,Champagne-Ardenne,France
PS-also 1 of my stamvaders.
Sincerely
Alistair Moncur Knox

Oops-my knowledge of French geography is a bit lacking:Ardennes=forest through which Prussians & Germans invaded many times,but in this case = department('province;),so Paul Mare's birthplace = Montherme,Champagne-Ardenne,Ardennes,northern France.Semois River meets the Meuse in Montherme,close to Belgium,dominated by rivers & forest.The town also on Wiki.One of many Germanic parts of France-descendants of old Germanic tribes that took up Latin from the Roman empire-ancestral DNA from these parts should be interesting,besides the fact that the area has been inhabited since Neolithic times.

Interesting.
Alistair, can you change that on the profile, or do you not have access?

Curators only-so I can't.BTW,looked through my list of Huguenot arrivals:found Paul's son, Ignace Mare & granddaughter(?) Maria:place of origin:"Calabria,Italy or Cambresis,Germany"

Oh sorry - it was probably me who locked it after the 5th time untangling the mis-merges.
I've unlocked it, and sent you a collaboration request in case that helps - so try now.

Yes, check the discussion on Ignace that I started a day or so ago - I think I added a note on that into the discussion.

I've also sent you a collaboration request to my Huguenot project - in case you feel like coming to help there too. :-)

I'd be delighted to help when I can-usually only late at night!At least I could see right away Marais & Mare are not the same,but you never know.I believed my Bosmans were boring Dutch/Flemish,but riddled with Huguenots,especially De Villiers(....and slaves).Now I know how I even manage a winter tan!Visited Cape Archives 1st time today-useful hard copy-any requests & can look up next time I manage to sneak off work for a couple of hours?Open Thurs 8.00-19.00-good way to fit in with workday.Slave project needs a lot of work....!

http://www.geni.com/discussions/110795?msg=812909

The only document we have giving Ignace's provenance is his marriage entry which clearly states that he was from Calabria.

Also, Ignace himself spelt his name Marre - see the signature I've uploaded under media, from the French Huguenot Museum in Franschoek

We are not talking about the same families here, but different ones.

I'm inclined to agree, Jansi - but was hoping to get someone with better knowledge of Pama to talk over the reason for the 'error' first.

Although the signature is the most useful imo, many of these guys signed different versions and spellings of their own name over their lifetimes.

Has anyone found a will or inventory for either Ignace or Susanna?

My search on the National Archives of South Africa site hasn't turned up anything, yet.

I know that the Huguenot Museum has a document with a signature of Ignace on it. Does anyone have a copy of that?

We must remember that family websites on the internet are not 'sources' at all, unless there is a document to prove the allegation, or at least a transcript from a document.

Ancestry.com, especially, is fraught with errors.

cf http://www.geni.com/discussions/110795?msg=814709

Just to muddy the waters a bit more!..I have found a Philippe Ignace Marre born in Arras (Northern France) in 1710...Not that I think he is OUR Ignace, but the surname.. & middle name of Ignace...Could there be a family connection?....The trouble is, we have so many different spellings of Ignace's name, & Marre is yet another!

Also found an Ignace Marre, born in 1852 in Aveyron...

We are going to have so much to summarize to decide on a conclusion - which is really good. Just need people to do the summaries :-)

Mare..de Mare..de la Mare de Salgas..Marre..Maree..Marais!...This is going to be a tough one Sharon!

I'm still searching for the evidence we used to place Paul as the father of Ignatius Maré, SV/PROG

Still all I can find is: "Hy was volgens onbevestigde bronne 'n tweede seun van ene Paul Maré. Van die Marés van Grootplaas het ek 'n afdruk van 'n portret van die stamvader se pa ontvang"
"He was, according to unverified sources, a second son of one, Paul Mare. From the Mares of Grootplaas I got this print of a portrait of the progenitor's [Ignace] father."
http://www.geocities.ws/paulmare69/families/mare_ignace.htm

I haven't seen ANY evidence for this assertion.

Yes, and now that we have decided to push Ignace's circa birth date back to 1670s (to accommodate Catherine as his daughter) we stretch the likelihood of his father's birthdate as being 1661.

That being said, if we estimate 15 - 20 yrs as smallest feasible time period between generations, Paul (or whoever Ignace's father is) could quite feasibly have a 1661 birthdate:

-Catherine could have been 15 -20 when she had her 1st child, Gerrit, in 1716 (which makes her birthdate 1696-1701 - so she's 4yrs-9yrs old on the boat to SA)

-And Ignace could have been 15-20yrs when he had her. (Which makes his birthdate 1676-1686)

-So, if his father is 15-20 when Ignace was born, his birthdate could be 1656-1671.

Hmm – all that really gets me is to deciding that we need to make Ignace’s circa birthdate 1675.
Thanks for listening :-)

ek het laas jaar in Amsterdam (Archives) die volgende inligting gekry. Paulus (Paul) Maré / De Mare De Salgas gebore 1661 in Frankryk, Ardennes (is 'n provinsie ) dorp Monthermé. Hy was getroud met Germaine Mathieu gebore 1665 in Frankryk. Ignace is gebore in 1684 ook in die selfde dorp as sy vader. Ek gaan middel van Junie na Monthermé om te kyk of ek iets meer kan uitvind.
Sal graag meer wil weet van die foto's waarop jy afgekom het.
Daar is 'n saamtrek vir alle Maré - Mare - Maree familie die naweek van 18 Okt in Klein Kariba.

Dankie vir die info, Amanda.

Eh het dit geadverteer op ons FaceBook bladsy ook:: http://www.facebook.com/groups/243811932355680/

So just my two pennies, I am not sure that Paul is the father of Ignace yet, Amanda - did you find confirmation in Montherme? The original rumour that his father was called came from my family line where all the oldest sons were called Paul, no documentary proof. The 3 portraits, allegedly Paul, Ignace and Catherine also from this family line. they may be real, they may be random. They used to say that it was a portrait of Ignace, his sister and his father. I am leaning towards Catherine being a sister not a daughter... But would love to confirm form primary sources.

So welcome Private User - Paul's lineage is starting to sound like Jung's last words: "Dream the myth onwards..." :-)
Amanda Petronella Jansen, ons wag in spanning :-)

Amanda, wil jou nou nie op die spot sit nie, maar dis immers gemeenskaplike voorsate wat ons hier ontsyfer :) Ek is baie opgewonde oor jou werk in die verband!

And Sharon Doubell, the number of web sites that now publish my scans of the 3 portraits in my fathers home as the truth is quite astounding :)

Paul - I'm sure I was one of the first to filch them (although I didn't know they were yours). Sorry jong if you think it was a cheek - but pictures of my grandparents are tooo hard to resist :-)

Given how famous they now are on the internet, it might be fascinating to write us an article about them. At the very least, you must pose with them for your internet pic :-)

Have you joined our Geni SA FaceBook page yet. We love this kind of 'human interest' story there :-)

Hey Sharon, filch and filch alike, I say :) Don't consider them mine, I just recognise the scans I made. Would be nice if someone else in the family can comment on whether they have seen or heard of these images before...

Have ot joined Geni SA faecbook page yet, not sure if I have time for another group... Will take a look some time in the near future.....