Structuring Golden Ages projects

From a Low Countries perspective, there is a logical 'sequence of events' between the Flemish and Dutch golden ages. Both Antwerp and Amsterdam were the dominant economic and cultural centers of Northern Europe. As we can easily see in those places, the relationship to Italy and Spain was particular tight (albeit for different reasons - economic and political).
I think we should complete the 'Golden Age' umbrella with Spain and Italy.
I've studied the issue a few weeks ago. In my mind, the Spanish and Italian golden ages are very simultaneous to Antwerp. In other words, we're talking about the period +/- 1480-1640.
My recommendation is to fill this 'Golden Age' umbrella project with a structure that encompasses:
- Golden Ages in the Low Countries
- Golden Ages in Spain
- Golden Ages in Italy

Under the Low Countries one, we aren't specifying 'Holland' or Flanders, but rather by city (Brugge, Antwerp, Amsterdam, Leiden...). I do think that this is the proper way.
And, as such, it also perfectly applies to Italy, which as such didn't exist as the peninsula was a combination of city-states: Firenze, Venezia, Genova, Milano, Ferrara...
In a way, I think this also works for Spain: there are significant differences between Madrid, Valladolid, Barcelona, Sevilla...
I have asked our Spanish friends to think about this too. (Tagging Private User).
Given that we have extremely limited coverage of Italy, I'd like to give this some special attention. By doing so, we may entice our Italian friends to participate and take some 'ownership' of their own history :-)
As always, these are just thoughts - everything's up for discussion to make it better :-)

I've now set up the project context for Firenze, and it just took me a minute to do so using the project document.
Now, we can load into the Firenze pages all the profiles and information that we see (or work on) that relates to Firenze in the 1480-1640 timeframe (which is a LOT :-) ).

Don't forget about the Golden Ages in France! :)

LOL. The trouble may be, Paris never was that dominant, economically and politically - until Napoleon. It's a bit similar with London... it had to 'wait til the Industrial Revolution and colonialism. But, that's up all up for debate, I'd say.
In fact, I'll bring it up on the French portal and see what French people think. We might also ask English curators if they feel a specific era would merit a 'Golden Ages in England' label :-)

That would be the Elizabethan Age - my favorite. :)

It's later in France perhaps? I always thought of the reign of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France as the High Renaissance there.

I understand what you mean, Erica. Setting the 'boundaries' for Golden Ages is difficult. They're not too complicated for Spain, Italy, Low Countries - more difficult for England or France. To me the Elisabethan Age looks 'golden' in comparison with other ages in England's history, but England was not geographically or economically dominant. Usually, 'golden age' seems to define a periode when a region was truly 'dominant' in many disciplines at once: trade, art, politics, fiinance, military... Also, it suggest an era 'that never came back' - whereas England grew dominant in the industrial revolution. France never got there, really, except for some brief moment under Napoleon - but then mostly military/political (not really under Louis XIV - it was just his court that flourished, not society LOL).
I think this makes for an excellent discussion.
After all, a focus area like Elisabethan Age helps so much to focus on specific dynasties, artists, etc - which help to expand and improve genealogical coverage of an era that people might connect to.

So when thinking about how to structure and define history's Golden Ages, maybe we need to focus first on population movement? Because that's what we're tracking.

By that criteria Elizabethan Age and Georgian but not Tudor so much.

In other words, the big trading and colonizing eras.

I really like doing it by City / State / Province.

Let me think it over by tomorrow? I think it was indeed a rich period for England, but not necessarily one in a global perspective. Besides Shakespeare, Marlowe... little on the cultural front (but please correct me). There was exploration, but other nations beat England to it. The financial world developed on the continent. England was a powerhouse, but mainly on its island. I think only the 18th century saw England becoming a broker on the world stage, but primarily in economic terms.
Like France, England is a tough one.

Well George, I like the concept of the Golden Ages, that is the time of the movement at one side because of religion and of the development at of the lower countries. Also the period of time for the crossing over to New Amsterdam etc.
In that time it were not France or England who had that mark.
For me George it is a bit strange to now make the step to England and France for that matter and also to take a step away of the structure of the Golden Ages project and period.
Well that said, I am very curious of the structure Erica wants to develop, It might be very good second step after this golden ages project.

As you know I'm focused on the Great Migration period in the US - 1620-1640. So I was thinking of that an outgrowth to the English Golden Age of Exploration - which is Elizabethan. The English port city of Bristol is interesting me as example.

I don't know the equivalent embarkation points (if any) in France.

So I was thinking more in terms of the migrations, which I believe in Europe (not in US as much at this point - they had other issues) created a vast explosion of new ideas and arts.

Well US had new ideas! And they were writing fools - Harvard was established very early. But not the visual delights of course of Italy as yet.

BTW Erica (a bit off but also on topic LOL) do you know that "Pilgrim fathers" first fled from England to Holland - Amsterdam and then lived in Leiden?

" A group of refugees led by John Robinson escaped England in 1608, where they were persecuted because they did not conform to the rules of the Anglican state church. Robinson and about one hundred others petitioned the city authorities of Leiden for leave to settle in the city. Although they did not need permission to stay, the request was answered on the 12th of February 1609 in the following, telling phrases: "Geen eerlicke persoonen weygeren vrije ende lybre incompst omme binnen deze stede...haer woonplaets te nemen". In modern English: "No honest persons will be refused free and unconstrained entry to the city to take up residence".

Robinson and his flock bought a piece of land near St. Peter's Church (Pieters kerk) , called the Groene Poort (Green Alley). They built 21 little houses, so that people also called it the Engelse poort (English Alley). Famous Pilgrims are William Brewster and his adopted son William Bradford. Brewster lived in a side alley of the Pieterskerkkoorsteeg. After a stay of eleven years, a substantial part of this community emigrated as Pilgrims to North America, between 1620 and 1643. During the journeys they were joined by other English people.

Yes, the radical Puritans indeed found great refuge in Leiden - and one of the Mayflowers, some sort of ancestor to me (it keeps changing in the tree) found his Walloon wife there.

I didn't know about English Alley though! A good reason to visit?

The reasons they decided to leave and re settle in the wilderness are not entirely clear. But I suspect that clever Brewster fellow (I'm related through one of his ancestors) had it in mind long before leading his flock to their happy refuge.

You should add the information about Leiden to the Mayflower Project, Jennie!

I have it on my Golden Ages Leiden project, did not know you did not had that information.
Well to be accurate:
.They (the refugees) escaped from the coast somewhere between Grimsby and Hull. The refugees were picked up by a Dutch skipper, en eventually reached Amsterdam. From there they moved to Leiden.
What is the name of your - might be - ancestor? Maybe I can look it up. Leiden has much information also about the "Mayflowers".

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~netlapm/Page01.htm

a Leiden / pilgrim tour Erica (had to find an english page)

Erica Howton

here is the link to the Leiden Pilgrim archives, maybe you can find your ancestor :-)

http://www.pilgrimarchives.nl/en/pilgrims-in-documents/pilgrims-in-...

Sorry George I'm so off topic! :-) :-)

Not really off-topic, Jennie - highlighting Leiden is a great thing to do. You know as well as I do how Leiden's official online records for teh 17th century probably show more names of French origin than anything else. I think there as lots of treasure to be found there for American and South African decendants - but it is a TOUGH JOB :-)

French as in .... ? My Dutch Fyn / Fein / Fine line is supposed to have originated in France. Would explain the successful vineyard in southern New Jersey?

Wine in New Jersey??? How does it taste?

Hey, I had wine made in Kansas and the reds were pretty good. The whites were bland.

Erica Howton the reason the English left Leiden was that they had to work very hard, got bad payed and for the most of them not the circumstances to stay a life time. They had freedom of religion but for the most of them the circumstances were far from ideal. Robinson stayed in Leiden en more stayed also (some had it very well in Leiden) , but the most of them left. I think they so opportunities in the "new land" for the future. Not bad thinking!

It took some starving time to get there, but eventually, yes.

Yes eventually.... and ages later they had Maria's red wine from Kansas! :-)